Greatest Living Player...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Wasn't Clemens acquitted of using PEDs in a court of law? So he is under suspicion mostly in the court of public opinion despite s lack of evidence.

As I recall, the only evidence against Clemens is

1) His trainer's testimony, whose story frequently changed while under pressure from the government to give others up. The only physical evidence McNamee provided was not really evidence at all, as Clemens never denied that McNamee gave him injections of other things, and so the needle itself doesn't prove either man's story. Neither Clemens nor McNamee was consistent.

2) Andy Pettite's also not consistent memory of a conversation in which he believed Clemens said he had tried them.



I believe that in all likelihood Clemens did in fact use them, but the evidence is extremely flimsy, at best. A massive waste of taxpayer money to pursue this loser of a case. His bizarre aging pattern is much more indicative than the testimonial.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As I recall, the only evidence against Clemens is

1) His trainer's testimony, whose story frequently changed while under pressure from the government to give others up. The only physical evidence McNamee provided was not really evidence at all, as Clemens never denied that McNamee gave him injections of other things, and so the needle itself doesn't prove either man's story. Neither Clemens nor McNamee was consistent.

2) Andy Pettite's also not consistent memory of a conversation in which he believed Clemens said he had tried them.



I believe that in all likelihood Clemens did in fact use them, but the evidence is extremely flimsy, at best. A massive waste of taxpayer money to pursue this loser of a case. His bizarre aging pattern is much more indicative than the testimonial.

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

He was charged with lying to Congress about his PED use, so there must have been some evidence he had used PEDs to bring the charge. I don't remember enough of the details, but the part about a delivery being for his wife sounds familiar. Apparently whatever evidence there was didn't convince a jury since he was acquitted.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

He was charged for perjury regarding denying PED use - i.e. no proof of PED use, no perjury. They had to prove he used PED's, and provided only two real pieces of evidence. One, the testimony of a serial liar who said everything under the sun about Clemens at different points when different things benefited him, and 2 Pettite's testimony who admitted on cross that there was a 50-50 chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens. They had absolutely nothing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

He was charged for perjury regarding denying PED use - i.e. no proof of PED use, no perjury. They had to prove he used PED's, and provided only two real pieces of evidence. One, the testimony of a serial liar who said everything under the sun about Clemens at different points when different things benefited him, and 2 Pettite's testimony who admitted on cross that there was a 50-50 chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens. They had absolutely nothing.

One of the weaker prosecutions in memory, for sure. The witnesses were disasters. If your burden is to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, you need to do better than that.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One of the weaker prosecutions in memory, for sure. The witnesses were disasters. If your burden is to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, you need to do better than that.

It would be nice if they would choose to prosecute strong cases for meaningful crimes with identifiable victims instead of wasting tons of money on showboating, revenge, and/or fame-chasing prosecutions. The only reason to go after Bonds and Clemens alone among the steroid accused was that they were the two biggest names. There was a case to be made against Bonds, though it was silly to spend so much time and effort on such a petty crime, but there wasn’t even a case at all on Clemens. Would be nice if we could save our money instead.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

As a Clemens fan it was hard to watch. Luckily I don't care what my sports heroes are like in real life. I am a fan because of what they do/have done in the sport. I also truly understand they ALL cheat(ed) anyway possible to make and keep their insanely high paying job.

[bigfanNY]

If Mays had passed away 5 years ago I might understand the arguments against Bonds. But in those 5 years Bud Selig and David Ortiz were both elected into the Hall of Fame. So saying the PED's make any player Persona non grata etc. Carries no weight. I am old enough to have seen Mantle Once..Mays at least 5 times same with Aaron, The early 70's O's the Mid 70's Reds Schmidt. But Bonds on the field and more importantly in the box was just head and shoulders above any of them. I would travel to Philly and Shea just to see him. He was clearly the Best Baseball Player I ever saw. Never mind the MVP's the stats etc. Watching how pitchers entire teams changed how they played when they faced him. It was a pleasure and a privilege to watch.