Greatest Living Player...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. If you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

Which tool was Griffey lacking?

[packs]

Staying on the field.

I love Griffey more than anyone else in the discussion but he had such an uneven career and he never won. I also don't think there's a lot separating Griffey from Trout, who is also living.

But I don't think we'll ever see another Rickey.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Staying on the field.

I love Griffey more than anyone else in the discussion but he had such an uneven career and he never won. I also don't think there's a lot separating Griffey from Trout, who is also living.

But I don't think we'll ever see another Rickey.

Rickey Henderson was basically league average for the last decade of his career, 104 OPS+.

[packs]

I understand that. But what do you consider to be great? I consider it to be a player you're unlikely to ever see again. I love Griffey, but Trout is still active. I don't really see a lot separating them or feel like I'll never see another Griffey again.

I don't know how people define their feelings for Mays, but a lot of people describe him as a once in a life player. That is my opinion on Rickey. I really don't think anyone will ever be a better lead off hitter than he was and I highly doubt his accomplishments will be surpassed, and that's because he was impossibly good at what he did.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I understand that. But what do you consider to be great? I consider it to be a player you're unlikely to ever see again. I love Griffey, but Trout is still active. I don't really see a lot separating them or feel like I'll never see another Griffey again.

I don't know how people define their feelings for Mays, but a lot of people describe him as a once in a life player. That is my opinion on Rickey. I really don't think anyone will ever be a better lead off hitter than he was and I highly doubt his accomplishments will be surpassed, and that's because he was impossibly good at what he did.

It’s not what I consider, it’s your given reasons. You said it was because he was five tool and then had to walk back the importance of five tools because Rickey requires a rather broad definition of them to qualify.

You said he’s over Griffey because Griffey was not as good the second half of his career, even though he was more effective than Rickey’s last decade.


If the judgement requires having to find reasons after the first few fail and ends on a subjective feeling, it’s just not a very compelling argument.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

It’s not what I consider, it’s your given reasons. You said it was because he was five tool and then had to walk back the importance of five tools because Rickey requires a rather broad definition of them to qualify.

You said he’s over Griffey because Griffey was not as good the second half of his career, even though he was more effective than Rickey’s last decade.


If the judgement requires having to find reasons after the first few fail and ends on a subjective feeling, it’s just not a very compelling argument.

I said Griffey's career was uneven and he didn't win. Only you are talking about what you're talking about.

And I do think Rickey was good at everything, which made him a five tool player. Other posters have the idea that to be a five tool player you have to be the greatest at all five tools at the same time.

Rickey's WAR also puts him 14th all time among position players. The only living players with a higher total than him are A-rod (suspended for PED use) and Bonds (long suspected of PED use). Griffey is at 37 and under 100 WAR for his career.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

I said Griffey's career was uneven and he didn't win. Only you are talking about what you're talking about.

And I do think Rickey was good at everything, which made him a five tool player. Other posters have the idea that to be a five tool player you have to be the greatest at all five tools at the same time.

Rickey's WAR also puts him 14th all time among position players. The only living players with a higher total than him are A-rod (suspended for PED use) and Bonds (long suspected of PED use). Griffey is at 37 and under 100 WAR for his career.

I think you have to be at least above average at all 5-tools to be considered a 5-tool player. Ted Williams and Babe Ruth were 2 of the greatest players of all time, but I don't think either was considered more than average fielders so I'm not sure I would call either of them a 5-tool player.