Greatest Living Player...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

BNorth- you don’t have to wait for my picks, I listed some of them already. The list is consistent with what many others have written. Read the posts…. G1911- Nah, wrong. You complaining about being off topic is 1) wrong and 2) as valid as Bonds complaining that someone cheated against him. This isn’t rocket science, partner. Immediately default to contrarian mode is silly and, in Bonds’ case for “greatest” living player, patently absurd. His “greatness” came from a test tube. Shame, he was a wonderful player without all the deliberate, pervasive, relentless doping. End of story- you do you from here, ok? Trent King

Picking Bonds is not contrarian. It is the mathematically obvious choice, and he appears to have more votes so far than anyone else in this thread. It is possible to just make your case in a reasonable way without leaping to the over the top angry posts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Amphetamines "have been around the game forever," the Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt writes in his new book, "Clearing the Bases," which HarperCollins will publish next month. "In my day," he says, they "were widely available in major-league clubhouses."

His [Selig's] predecessors knew about them, too, but they didn't want to do anything about them, either. At a drug trial in Pittsburgh in 1985, Dale Berra and Dave Parker testified that Willie Stargell and Bill Madlock dispensed greenies to their Pirates teammates. John Milner told the jury that Willie Mays had a bottle of red juice, or liquid amphetamines, in his locker when they played for the Mets.

In the book -- in which Schmidt also discusses Barry Bonds, the legacies of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, and Pete Rose -- Schmidt writes that the elimination of amphetamines could have "possibly far greater implications for the game than the crackdown against steroids."

[Casey2296]

The word "greatest" includes more than stats imo, I'm going with Koufax and his impeccable character.

[Exhibitman]

Trent, my friend, context and nuance. I said "all other considerations excluded" and based on the numbers alone Bonds is the greatest living player. if you want to base the answer on a more holistic approach that considers something other than the stats, that is certainly a defensible and understandable position. If that is the case, my vote goes to Mike Schmidt. The power and the skill at the hot corner are a 1-2 punch at one of the toughest positions to play with one of the lowest HOF ratios. IMO the best third baseman of all time, dead or alive. I can see an argument for Bench now that Berra is dead but still think of Berra as the GOAT.

i don't rate pitchers the same as position players. Too different a job. Best living pitcher I go with Koufax by a nose over Randy Johnson because at his best if you had one game you had to win and the pitcher had to go all the way, Koufax would be my choice. Randy Johnson, amazing player. Threw 37 shutouts in 23 years. Koufax threw 40 in 12 years. Johnson completed 100 games in 23 years; Koufax 137 in 12. His last year before he retired for medical reasons, WHIP of 0.985, 27 complete games, 5 shutouts, 317 strikeouts.

Ryan is my favorite pitcher ever, but not quite the same guy as Johnson or Koufax at their best. At Ryan's best he was about 25% less than Koufax and Johnson at their best. 7.7 WAR vs. 10+ WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For me, Koufax had far too short a career and even peak to be in the conversation with Johnson, Pedro, and, IMO, Maddux. He was of course not blowing people away like the others and Ryan, but was the consummate artist. Fiour CYAs in a row, did anyone other than Unit do that?

If you look past the steroids, nobody quite approached Clemens.

[G1911]

There is a decent argument that Pedro Martinez is the greatest peak value pitcher in baseball history. In 2000 he led the AL in ERA with a 1.74. 2nd place was all-time great and cheating Roger Clemens at... 3.70. 5 seasons with an ERA+ over 200, something Koufax and Ryan did 0 times. In context, he dominated the league to a truly historical level.

Johnson and Maddux had better total careers and are very close together. WAR has them essentially tied, which feels about right for once. Maddux was Pedro level dominant in 94/5. I would probably pick Maddux but would not argue Johnson as the greatest living pitcher. Having Clemens/Maddux/Johnson/Pedro all at essentially the same time was a lot of fun to watch.

[TUM301]

Ken Griffey Jr gets my vote with Koufax/Pedro M on the pitching side.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

There is a decent argument that Pedro Martinez is the greatest peak value pitcher in baseball history.

You know who we all forgot and who had an ever better single season as a pitcher than Martinez?



In 1972: 12.1 WAR, 27 wins, 1.97 ERA, 41 games started and 30 complete games, 8 shutouts, 310 strikeouts. For a 6th place team that only won 59 games.

Peak WAR on Martinez was 11.7. He appeared in 31 games (29 started) in 2000, completed 7 (4 shutouts).

We are just never again going to see workhorse numbers like the 1960s-1970s pitchers, except maybe from a knuckleball pitcher. That cuts both ways in the argument. Is Pedro better because he worked 25% less than Carlton, or is Carlton better because he sustained his excellence with that workload? Same issue with Koufax-Johnson. Discuss.