Does reduced trimming trump centering?

[steve B]

To get back closer to the original topic, I've never been all that insistent about centering. Having it be sort of even is a plus, but a nice card that's not well centered is fine for me.

A nice card rejected for atypical cuts top and bottom, likely from a dull blade.

[Snowman]

All cards have been cut by a blade. Different blades produce different cuts. Variations in the sharpness of each blade produce variations in edge textures even within the same sets. If a 1954 Topps card was cut with one of the rotary cutters with a dull blade, then it produced cards with a rough cut. These were only used on the left and right edges of the cards though, as a different blade was used to cut them horizontally (ream cutters).

Here is a link below to an article on CU regarding the manufacturing process at Topps with several pictures of the process. Note there are also videos and other resources available online of the operations inside Panini and other card manufacturers.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...opps-cut-cards

If you believe that you can spot the majority of trimmed cards with a loupe, you're wrong. Especially with modern cards. You can learn how to detect a botched edge or a bad trim job, but you absolutely cannot detect a good one and neither can the most experienced graders at every TPG. And if you think AI is going to help with that, you'd be wrong again.

That said, you can certainly tell when certain cards have been trimmed. I encounter them regularly. But those were all trimmed by amateurs. It's like hair transplants. You can't detect a good one, only the bad ones. There are a lot of people walking around with hair transplants and you just don't know it. I wonder what there's more of, trimmed cards or people with hair transplants? I'd bet it close. Both are certainly in the millions.

As far as how to approach the market as a buyer, I think what the OP is getting at is that there is often no way of truly knowing whether or not a card has been trimmed. If it bothers you enough then you should probably study the subject, perhaps even cut up some cards yourself with various blades and examine them with a loupe so that you know what you're looking at. Then approach each card you encounter as having a likelihood of being trimmed or not rather than a "yes" or "no" determination. Cards with rounded corners are usually safe, cards with sharp corners that don't measure correctly are often not. If it's a PSA 9 or 10 vintage card and the borders look small, then it was almost certainly trimmed (and there are A LOT of these cards out there). Maybe take the Leon approach and only look for cards with large borders (although even large cards are not always safe). You can easily slice off 1/128" from a card. So if a card measures even just 1/32" tall, that means someone could trim it 4 times and still be within spec. And if you think rough cuts are safe, think again. This example below from a BODA post should tell you nearly everything you need to know about the trimming scandal. Note it measures the same size in both images.

As for me personally, I generally don't want trimmed cards unless it's a high-end card that I wouldn't otherwise be able to buy. Or rather I should say I don't want cards that bear evidence of trimming. I'm sure there are cards in my collection that were trimmed undetectably (we all have them), but as long as they measure correctly and the edges look like factory cuts, then I probably wouldn't care if I were to find out that it was trimmed. But I definitely try to avoid trimmed cards to the extent that it's possible.

[Snowman]

The funny thing about the Clemente above is that Moser put the rough cuts on the wrong edges lol. Seems like he would know that too. I wonder if he was trolling PSA/the hobby when he chopped that one up?

PSA says it's still good though lol

https://www.psacard.com/cert/26928973

[steve B]

The cutters used have varied over the years. I doubt the same machine would be used in 91 that was used in 55. And Panini and other manufacturers use an entirely different process now.

I have doubts about the picture shown for cutting in that article. Especially since some of the others are staged and not actual production. Hand feeding one sheet at a time into a machine is so slow it wouldn't work. The machine she's got is too narrow to fit the sheet that's there, and the bookcase next to it isn't leading anywhere.
That it's a staged photo on a different machine isn't surprising. The collating machines were a trade secret, and wouldn't be shown in a public article. They may not have even been collated at Topps, I don't recall the date, but in the 90's a company was advertising secure cutting and collating services in the Thomas Register.

The claim that nobody can detect a good trim job is just plain wrong. Lets put an end to that. Could it be hard given the few seconds the TPGs spend? Yes. Undetectable? No.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

The claim that nobody can detect a good trim job is just plain wrong. Lets put an end to that.

What makes you believe that? You sound confident.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

What makes you believe that? You sound confident.

I am confident. Every manufacturing process leaves evidence of itself.

it isan exact science.

A guillotine cutter and a home or even pro paper cutter will leave a different cut. A sharp blade leaves a different cut than a dull one. Die Cutting which is used for most modern cards is different than any of them. Same for rotary shears.
The only exception I'd make to detectable or not would be using a professional guillotine cutter on cards produced using that type of cutter. And that has some very real challenges if you're trying to trim an individual card.

Size doesn't really matter, within limits. What matters is edge quality and placement. The edges ae also directional.
You were very close with the rough edges on a trimmed card being in the wrong place. I would bet that those edges are not in the correct direction

[Leon]

I politely disagree with being able to identify trimming, as an exact science. No grader I have ever spoken with (and I have spoken to many) say it's an exact science. Take your factory guillotine cut cards, cut a sliver off with an exacto knife, and rub your finger over the edges. There is no way to tell it was cut, period. And nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

Just my opinion and everyone has their own ideas. I only base mine on experience.

Originally Posted by steve B

I am confident. Every manufacturing process leaves evidence of itself.

it isan exact science.

A guillotine cutter and a home or even pro paper cutter will leave a different cut. A sharp blade leaves a different cut than a dull one. Die Cutting which is used for most modern cards is different than any of them. Same for rotary shears.
The only exception I'd make to detectable or not would be using a professional guillotine cutter on cards produced using that type of cutter. And that has some very real challenges if you're trying to trim an individual card.

Size doesn't really matter, within limits. What matters is edge quality and placement. The edges ae also directional.
You were very close with the rough edges on a trimmed card being in the wrong place. I would bet that those edges are not in the correct direction

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

I am confident. Every manufacturing process leaves evidence of itself.

it isan exact science.

A guillotine cutter and a home or even pro paper cutter will leave a different cut. A sharp blade leaves a different cut than a dull one. Die Cutting which is used for most modern cards is different than any of them. Same for rotary shears.
The only exception I'd make to detectable or not would be using a professional guillotine cutter on cards produced using that type of cutter. And that has some very real challenges if you're trying to trim an individual card.

Size doesn't really matter, within limits. What matters is edge quality and placement. The edges ae also directional.
You were very close with the rough edges on a trimmed card being in the wrong place. I would bet that those edges are not in the correct direction

Yes, of course there are differences in cuts from each of the various blades you mentioned and how dull or sharp they are. If you cut a card with the wrong type of blade, it will obviously stand out. What you seen to be overlooking though is that you cannot distinguish between two cards that were cut by two different guillotine blades or two cards that were cut by two different ream cutters, etc. There simply isn't that much variation in edge textures of cards to begin with. It's very easy to duplicate most cuts. Hell, you can even buy the same cutting machines that were used by Topps. There's a reason these guys are getting trimmed cards through by the thousands. It's because they're not detectable unless they're amateurs who completely botch the cards up.

[Leon]

A lot of times we differ in our thinking. But I think this post of yours is spot on, conerning trimming. Any really good grader will say it's not an exact science. OF course there are telltale signs, but it's not 100%, nor can it be.

Everything you said, is true, from what I know. No doubt a card with huge borders could still be trimmed. But the chances are much, much lower. And, I am biased, but still think pre war cards with big borders, and not likely trimmed, will gain more as the hobby matures. I am fairly confident this Duffy hasn't been trimmed, but can't ever be 100%.

Originally Posted by Snowman

All cards have been cut by a blade. Different blades produce different cuts. Variations in the sharpness of each blade produce variations in edge textures even within the same sets. If a 1954 Topps card was cut with one of the rotary cutters with a dull blade, then it produced cards with a rough cut. These were only used on the left and right edges of the cards though, as a different blade was used to cut them horizontally (ream cutters).

Here is a link below to an article on CU regarding the manufacturing process at Topps with several pictures of the process. Note there are also videos and other resources available online of the operations inside Panini and other card manufacturers.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...opps-cut-cards

If you believe that you can spot the majority of trimmed cards with a loupe, you're wrong. Especially with modern cards. You can learn how to detect a botched edge or a bad trim job, but you absolutely cannot detect a good one and neither can the most experienced graders at every TPG. And if you think AI is going to help with that, you'd be wrong again.

That said, you can certainly tell when certain cards have been trimmed. I encounter them regularly. But those were all trimmed by amateurs. It's like hair transplants. You can't detect a good one, only the bad ones. There are a lot of people walking around with hair transplants and you just don't know it. I wonder what there's more of, trimmed cards or people with hair transplants? I'd bet it close. Both are certainly in the millions.

As far as how to approach the market as a buyer, I think what the OP is getting at is that there is often no way of truly knowing whether or not a card has been trimmed. If it bothers you enough then you should probably study the subject, perhaps even cut up some cards yourself with various blades and examine them with a loupe so that you know what you're looking at. Then approach each card you encounter as having a likelihood of being trimmed or not rather than a "yes" or "no" determination. Cards with rounded corners are usually safe, cards with sharp corners that don't measure correctly are often not. If it's a PSA 9 or 10 vintage card and the borders look small, then it was almost certainly trimmed (and there are A LOT of these cards out there). Maybe take the Leon approach and only look for cards with large borders (although even large cards are not always safe). You can easily slice off 1/128" from a card. So if a card measures even just 1/32" tall, that means someone could trim it 4 times and still be within spec. And if you think rough cuts are safe, think again. This example below from a BODA post should tell you nearly everything you need to know about the trimming scandal. Note it measures the same size in both images.

As for me personally, I generally don't want trimmed cards unless it's a high-end card that I wouldn't otherwise be able to buy. Or rather I should say I don't want cards that bear evidence of trimming. I'm sure there are cards in my collection that were trimmed undetectably (we all have them), but as long as they measure correctly and the edges look like factory cuts, then I probably wouldn't care if I were to find out that it was trimmed. But I definitely try to avoid trimmed cards to the extent that it's possible.