Does reduced trimming trump centering?

[steve B]

The cutters used have varied over the years. I doubt the same machine would be used in 91 that was used in 55. And Panini and other manufacturers use an entirely different process now.

I have doubts about the picture shown for cutting in that article. Especially since some of the others are staged and not actual production. Hand feeding one sheet at a time into a machine is so slow it wouldn't work. The machine she's got is too narrow to fit the sheet that's there, and the bookcase next to it isn't leading anywhere.
That it's a staged photo on a different machine isn't surprising. The collating machines were a trade secret, and wouldn't be shown in a public article. They may not have even been collated at Topps, I don't recall the date, but in the 90's a company was advertising secure cutting and collating services in the Thomas Register.

The claim that nobody can detect a good trim job is just plain wrong. Lets put an end to that. Could it be hard given the few seconds the TPGs spend? Yes. Undetectable? No.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

The claim that nobody can detect a good trim job is just plain wrong. Lets put an end to that.

What makes you believe that? You sound confident.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

What makes you believe that? You sound confident.

I am confident. Every manufacturing process leaves evidence of itself.

it isan exact science.

A guillotine cutter and a home or even pro paper cutter will leave a different cut. A sharp blade leaves a different cut than a dull one. Die Cutting which is used for most modern cards is different than any of them. Same for rotary shears.
The only exception I'd make to detectable or not would be using a professional guillotine cutter on cards produced using that type of cutter. And that has some very real challenges if you're trying to trim an individual card.

Size doesn't really matter, within limits. What matters is edge quality and placement. The edges ae also directional.
You were very close with the rough edges on a trimmed card being in the wrong place. I would bet that those edges are not in the correct direction

[Leon]

I politely disagree with being able to identify trimming, as an exact science. No grader I have ever spoken with (and I have spoken to many) say it's an exact science. Take your factory guillotine cut cards, cut a sliver off with an exacto knife, and rub your finger over the edges. There is no way to tell it was cut, period. And nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

Just my opinion and everyone has their own ideas. I only base mine on experience.

Originally Posted by steve B

I am confident. Every manufacturing process leaves evidence of itself.

it isan exact science.

A guillotine cutter and a home or even pro paper cutter will leave a different cut. A sharp blade leaves a different cut than a dull one. Die Cutting which is used for most modern cards is different than any of them. Same for rotary shears.
The only exception I'd make to detectable or not would be using a professional guillotine cutter on cards produced using that type of cutter. And that has some very real challenges if you're trying to trim an individual card.

Size doesn't really matter, within limits. What matters is edge quality and placement. The edges ae also directional.
You were very close with the rough edges on a trimmed card being in the wrong place. I would bet that those edges are not in the correct direction

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Leon

I politely disagree with being able to identify trimming, as an exact science. No grader I have ever spoken with (and I have spoken to many) say it's an exact science. Take your factory guillotine cut cards, cut a sliver off with an exacto knife, and rub your finger over the edges. There is no way to tell it was cut, period. And nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise.

Just my opinion and everyone has their own ideas. I only base mine on experience.

What if Steve and Greg entered that contest at the card show and both nailed 20 out of 20. Would you still not be convinced?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[steve B]

I've seen a display of altered stamps that were good enough I couldn't spot the alterations. Those were miles ahead of any trimming I've seen.

I would be open to being tested. if someone sent a common or two, with or without known trimming to keep it from being just a hunt for what I would know is there, I believe I could find a trim nearly every time.

Could I do it in 30 seconds like the grading companies take? I'm not sure.

I would be open to similar tests for any alterations. Some of the borderline ones where some think it's altering some don't may in fact be undetectable some of the time. Like wiping off a wax stain.

[Leon]

For the same reason I don't cut strips of cards, or already damaged cards, I wouldn't want to test your abilities. I am sure you would do very well. That said, I just reaffirmed with a grader whom I happen to know, he doesn't think trimming is an exact science either. I am quite sure any good grader will say the same thing. That doesn't mean they don't catch a lot, or most, of the alterations. I think they do. But there are some things I just don't think they can detect. And I am not talking about higher grade cards. I am talking the 2s-5s ranges....which will have normal, handled, wear.

To Al above, if they got 20 of 20 right, I would have to re-eavaluate my position

Originally Posted by steve B

I've seen a display of altered stamps that were good enough I couldn't spot the alterations. Those were miles ahead of any trimming I've seen.

I would be open to being tested. if someone sent a common or two, with or without known trimming to keep it from being just a hunt for what I would know is there, I believe I could find a trim nearly every time.

Could I do it in 30 seconds like the grading companies take? I'm not sure.

I would be open to similar tests for any alterations. Some of the borderline ones where some think it's altering some don't may in fact be undetectable some of the time. Like wiping off a wax stain.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

What if Steve and Greg entered that contest at the card show and both nailed 20 out of 20. Would you still not be convinced?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

I'd award them each ten grand if they could identify even 5 out of 20

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'd award them each ten grand if they could identify even 5 out of 20

If you start honoring your bets and send Jeremy his $10K, I'll take you up on this offer.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'd award them each ten grand if they could identify even 5 out of 20

Send me 20 and lets see.

There are sets that would be very hard, and I don't think I could tell reliably. Ramlys, T51, other very thin cards.

Send 20 cards, probably best if they're commons. (or 10 or 30 , whatever, as long as it's not hundreds or thousands...)
There can be any number of them trimmed, as long as you know which ones, or even if it's all or none of them.
Maybe send the list beforehand to a third party, and third party. So someone else has the identical info. Me not knowing and someone else knowing keeps us both honest.

That's an open offer to anyone.
Unlike some, while I don't like being wrong, I'm ok with it if it can be proven.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

I am confident. Every manufacturing process leaves evidence of itself.

it isan exact science.

A guillotine cutter and a home or even pro paper cutter will leave a different cut. A sharp blade leaves a different cut than a dull one. Die Cutting which is used for most modern cards is different than any of them. Same for rotary shears.
The only exception I'd make to detectable or not would be using a professional guillotine cutter on cards produced using that type of cutter. And that has some very real challenges if you're trying to trim an individual card.

Size doesn't really matter, within limits. What matters is edge quality and placement. The edges ae also directional.
You were very close with the rough edges on a trimmed card being in the wrong place. I would bet that those edges are not in the correct direction

Yes, of course there are differences in cuts from each of the various blades you mentioned and how dull or sharp they are. If you cut a card with the wrong type of blade, it will obviously stand out. What you seen to be overlooking though is that you cannot distinguish between two cards that were cut by two different guillotine blades or two cards that were cut by two different ream cutters, etc. There simply isn't that much variation in edge textures of cards to begin with. It's very easy to duplicate most cuts. Hell, you can even buy the same cutting machines that were used by Topps. There's a reason these guys are getting trimmed cards through by the thousands. It's because they're not detectable unless they're amateurs who completely botch the cards up.