Does reduced trimming trump centering?

[sb1]

One of the key aspects of determining if a T206 has been trimmed or not is to learn what the edges should like, sizes will vary, original cuts will not. There are tell-tale signs of how the sheets were cut into vertical strips and then horizontally into singles, which if one handles enough of them, can learn what an original edge should look like.

A 10x loupe is generally all you will need.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by sb1

One of the key aspects of determining if a T206 has been trimmed or not is to learn what the edges should like, sizes will vary, original cuts will not. There are tell-tale signs of how the sheets were cut into vertical strips and then horizontally into singles, which if one handles enough of them, can learn what an original edge should look like.

A 10x loupe is generally all you will need.

+1

This article by David Cycleback has been helpful to me. Hopefully, others will also benefit from it.

https://net54baseball.com/forum/content/trimming.html

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Eric72

+1

This article by David Cycleback has been helpful to me. Hopefully, others will also benefit from it.

https://net54baseball.com/forum/content/trimming.html

It really is an excellent article, hits the main points without getting too technical in the areas that are outliers.

One thing I will add, the rolled edge and corresponding ridge on the other side hold up even after major wear. That was a surprise to me years ago when I checked some of mine. Even cards well into the Poor to fair range clearly had those edge qualities.

There are a few ways an edge can look and be strange and not be trimmed. But they're mostly uncommon.

[Leon]

+1. Study of original cards is a great thing. That said, I always go for big borders too. I stay far, far away from high grade T206s with tiny borders. I am careful and feel very good about none of my (20+) T206s being trimmed.

Originally Posted by sb1

One of the key aspects of determining if a T206 has been trimmed or not is to learn what the edges should like, sizes will vary, original cuts will not. There are tell-tale signs of how the sheets were cut into vertical strips and then horizontally into singles, which if one handles enough of them, can learn what an original edge should look like.

A 10x loupe is generally all you will need.

[steve B]

To get back closer to the original topic, I've never been all that insistent about centering. Having it be sort of even is a plus, but a nice card that's not well centered is fine for me.

A nice card rejected for atypical cuts top and bottom, likely from a dull blade.

[Snowman]

All cards have been cut by a blade. Different blades produce different cuts. Variations in the sharpness of each blade produce variations in edge textures even within the same sets. If a 1954 Topps card was cut with one of the rotary cutters with a dull blade, then it produced cards with a rough cut. These were only used on the left and right edges of the cards though, as a different blade was used to cut them horizontally (ream cutters).

Here is a link below to an article on CU regarding the manufacturing process at Topps with several pictures of the process. Note there are also videos and other resources available online of the operations inside Panini and other card manufacturers.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...opps-cut-cards

If you believe that you can spot the majority of trimmed cards with a loupe, you're wrong. Especially with modern cards. You can learn how to detect a botched edge or a bad trim job, but you absolutely cannot detect a good one and neither can the most experienced graders at every TPG. And if you think AI is going to help with that, you'd be wrong again.

That said, you can certainly tell when certain cards have been trimmed. I encounter them regularly. But those were all trimmed by amateurs. It's like hair transplants. You can't detect a good one, only the bad ones. There are a lot of people walking around with hair transplants and you just don't know it. I wonder what there's more of, trimmed cards or people with hair transplants? I'd bet it close. Both are certainly in the millions.

As far as how to approach the market as a buyer, I think what the OP is getting at is that there is often no way of truly knowing whether or not a card has been trimmed. If it bothers you enough then you should probably study the subject, perhaps even cut up some cards yourself with various blades and examine them with a loupe so that you know what you're looking at. Then approach each card you encounter as having a likelihood of being trimmed or not rather than a "yes" or "no" determination. Cards with rounded corners are usually safe, cards with sharp corners that don't measure correctly are often not. If it's a PSA 9 or 10 vintage card and the borders look small, then it was almost certainly trimmed (and there are A LOT of these cards out there). Maybe take the Leon approach and only look for cards with large borders (although even large cards are not always safe). You can easily slice off 1/128" from a card. So if a card measures even just 1/32" tall, that means someone could trim it 4 times and still be within spec. And if you think rough cuts are safe, think again. This example below from a BODA post should tell you nearly everything you need to know about the trimming scandal. Note it measures the same size in both images.

As for me personally, I generally don't want trimmed cards unless it's a high-end card that I wouldn't otherwise be able to buy. Or rather I should say I don't want cards that bear evidence of trimming. I'm sure there are cards in my collection that were trimmed undetectably (we all have them), but as long as they measure correctly and the edges look like factory cuts, then I probably wouldn't care if I were to find out that it was trimmed. But I definitely try to avoid trimmed cards to the extent that it's possible.

[Snowman]

The funny thing about the Clemente above is that Moser put the rough cuts on the wrong edges lol. Seems like he would know that too. I wonder if he was trolling PSA/the hobby when he chopped that one up?

PSA says it's still good though lol

https://www.psacard.com/cert/26928973

[steve B]

The cutters used have varied over the years. I doubt the same machine would be used in 91 that was used in 55. And Panini and other manufacturers use an entirely different process now.

I have doubts about the picture shown for cutting in that article. Especially since some of the others are staged and not actual production. Hand feeding one sheet at a time into a machine is so slow it wouldn't work. The machine she's got is too narrow to fit the sheet that's there, and the bookcase next to it isn't leading anywhere.
That it's a staged photo on a different machine isn't surprising. The collating machines were a trade secret, and wouldn't be shown in a public article. They may not have even been collated at Topps, I don't recall the date, but in the 90's a company was advertising secure cutting and collating services in the Thomas Register.

The claim that nobody can detect a good trim job is just plain wrong. Lets put an end to that. Could it be hard given the few seconds the TPGs spend? Yes. Undetectable? No.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

The claim that nobody can detect a good trim job is just plain wrong. Lets put an end to that.

What makes you believe that? You sound confident.

[Leon]

A lot of times we differ in our thinking. But I think this post of yours is spot on, conerning trimming. Any really good grader will say it's not an exact science. OF course there are telltale signs, but it's not 100%, nor can it be.

Everything you said, is true, from what I know. No doubt a card with huge borders could still be trimmed. But the chances are much, much lower. And, I am biased, but still think pre war cards with big borders, and not likely trimmed, will gain more as the hobby matures. I am fairly confident this Duffy hasn't been trimmed, but can't ever be 100%.

Originally Posted by Snowman

All cards have been cut by a blade. Different blades produce different cuts. Variations in the sharpness of each blade produce variations in edge textures even within the same sets. If a 1954 Topps card was cut with one of the rotary cutters with a dull blade, then it produced cards with a rough cut. These were only used on the left and right edges of the cards though, as a different blade was used to cut them horizontally (ream cutters).

Here is a link below to an article on CU regarding the manufacturing process at Topps with several pictures of the process. Note there are also videos and other resources available online of the operations inside Panini and other card manufacturers.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...opps-cut-cards

If you believe that you can spot the majority of trimmed cards with a loupe, you're wrong. Especially with modern cards. You can learn how to detect a botched edge or a bad trim job, but you absolutely cannot detect a good one and neither can the most experienced graders at every TPG. And if you think AI is going to help with that, you'd be wrong again.

That said, you can certainly tell when certain cards have been trimmed. I encounter them regularly. But those were all trimmed by amateurs. It's like hair transplants. You can't detect a good one, only the bad ones. There are a lot of people walking around with hair transplants and you just don't know it. I wonder what there's more of, trimmed cards or people with hair transplants? I'd bet it close. Both are certainly in the millions.

As far as how to approach the market as a buyer, I think what the OP is getting at is that there is often no way of truly knowing whether or not a card has been trimmed. If it bothers you enough then you should probably study the subject, perhaps even cut up some cards yourself with various blades and examine them with a loupe so that you know what you're looking at. Then approach each card you encounter as having a likelihood of being trimmed or not rather than a "yes" or "no" determination. Cards with rounded corners are usually safe, cards with sharp corners that don't measure correctly are often not. If it's a PSA 9 or 10 vintage card and the borders look small, then it was almost certainly trimmed (and there are A LOT of these cards out there). Maybe take the Leon approach and only look for cards with large borders (although even large cards are not always safe). You can easily slice off 1/128" from a card. So if a card measures even just 1/32" tall, that means someone could trim it 4 times and still be within spec. And if you think rough cuts are safe, think again. This example below from a BODA post should tell you nearly everything you need to know about the trimming scandal. Note it measures the same size in both images.

As for me personally, I generally don't want trimmed cards unless it's a high-end card that I wouldn't otherwise be able to buy. Or rather I should say I don't want cards that bear evidence of trimming. I'm sure there are cards in my collection that were trimmed undetectably (we all have them), but as long as they measure correctly and the edges look like factory cuts, then I probably wouldn't care if I were to find out that it was trimmed. But I definitely try to avoid trimmed cards to the extent that it's possible.