Take Note, Ty Cobb Fans

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

If I understand you correctly, you are arguing as follows: Given the enormous size difference in the white and black populations, it seems highly unlikely that a black league would have had the depth that a white league had, even if the best in one league would have been on par or better than the best in other leagues. Am I understanding it correctly?
Here are my thoughts:
1) I don't think that as a starting point, there is anything wrong with raising this question. But it certainly is not a question that has no answer. To give one example... In low-income areas and among certain populations, a career in pro sports (or entertainment) is often viewed as one of the few options that children see as a way to escape their conditions, and therefore in these populations, the focus on sport is often far more widespread than in other communities. Such an approach shifts the math.
2) The arguments that the leagues were equal are from many different data points including black players who played afterwards, many, many barnstorming games, observers etc. While the question you raise does make one pause, once it is combined with empirical evidence, the question needs to change to, "given that black population was far smaller than the white population in the United States during that time, how is it that evidence points to the black baseball leagues being on par with white leagues?
3) The black leagues were a few teams smaller than the white leagues and so it is possible that the leagues in fact would not have had the depth, but because they were smaller, fewer Major League caliber players were needed.
4) I'm also not sure why you would assume that there is no statistical issue with saying that the best black team could stand up against the best white team. While it is not an identical question, it would seem that the smaller available pool would also impact the number of truly great players.
5) Whatever the reasons are, we see that the vast majority of elite athletes today are black. I don't know or care whether that is because they focus in this area more, if there are genetic components etc. but the question you asked could equally be asked about today's NBA and NFL. The fact that we find examples in modern times of a level of talent disprortionately coming from a black population means that some combination of factors makes this possible. I think that the disparity in the available pool of players raises a question, and there are indications that the leagues may

All good points, and I am reconsidering my positions. I'm also wondering if there could come a time when the game has become truly global and more and more Japanese, Latin, and other players have proven themselves the equals of MLB players, if a similar attempt might not be mounted to go back and assign some similar records to the great players of those leagues. I don't know why not. And I do appreciate this discussion for providing some very interesting grist for the endless mill of the "Hot Stove Leagues."

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

All good points, and I am reconsidering my positions. I'm also wondering if there could come a time when the game has become truly global and more and more Japanese, Latin, and other players have proven themselves the equals of MLB players, if a similar attempt might not be mounted to go back and assign some similar records to the great players of those leagues. I don't know why not. And I do appreciate this discussion for providing some very interesting grist for the endless mill of the "Hot Stove Leagues."

I just want to acknowledge how refreshing it is to see civil discourse actually resulting in someone reconsidering a conviction. I feel like it is exceedingly rare, as people are usually so entrenched in their positions.

Great to see.

[Touch'EmAll]

A concept I was struggling with is: Where is the data coming from, and how valid, accurate and complete is the data.

Years ago I tried to obtain stats for Satchell Paige. At the time, there wasn't much data, if any to be found. Chalk it up to go with the stories (decent amount of first account stories) and judge from there. Not much argument Paige was among the very best if not THE best, so I pencil him in at the top of my personal list. And assume he could easily give Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, Randy Johnson a run for their money.

I found this morning some info about how the recently revealed numbers came to be.

"...bless those that spent more than 3 years digging through newspapers and other relics is search of the box scores to make it happen."

Ok, alright. Sounds like perhaps enough data has been recently been found to formulate some statistical legitimacy. But is it enough to warrant the new "set in stone" stats to be forever more regarded as gospel.

And the records - we are talking Major League Baseball MLB official records, are we not ? The Negro Leagues were not MLB. Kind of like in basketball, the ABA records are ABA records and not NBA records. To anoint an ABA record holder the now new king of an NBA stat record is not correct. There are different Leagues, different leagues have different records and different leagues have overall different talent levels. I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

Although I can now better acknowledge and praise the accomplishments of Negro League players, I still find it difficult to incorporate the numbers we do have and rewrite the record books of MLB.

[tjisonline]

Well said.

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

A concept I was struggling with is: Where is the data coming from, and how valid, accurate and complete is the data.

Years ago I tried to obtain stats for Satchell Paige. At the time, there wasn't much data, if any to be found. Chalk it up to go with the stories (decent amount of first account stories) and judge from there. Not much argument Paige was among the very best if not THE best, so I pencil him in at the top of my personal list. And assume he could easily give Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, Randy Johnson a run for their money.

I found this morning some info about how the recently revealed numbers came to be.

"...bless those that spent more than 3 years digging through newspapers and other relics is search of the box scores to make it happen."

Ok, alright. Sounds like perhaps enough data has been recently been found to formulate some statistical legitimacy. But is it enough to warrant the new "set in stone" stats to be forever more regarded as gospel.

And the records - we are talking Major League Baseball MLB official records, are we not ? The Negro Leagues were not MLB. Kind of like in basketball, the ABA records are ABA records and not NBA records. To anoint an ABA record holder the now new king of an NBA stat record is not correct. There are different Leagues, different leagues have different records and different leagues have overall different talent levels. I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

Although I can now better acknowledge and praise the accomplishments of Negro League players, I still find it difficult to incorporate the numbers we do have and rewrite the record books of MLB.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

A concept I was struggling with is: Where is the data coming from, and how valid, accurate and complete is the data.

Years ago I tried to obtain stats for Satchell Paige. At the time, there wasn't much data, if any to be found. Chalk it up to go with the stories (decent amount of first account stories) and judge from there. Not much argument Paige was among the very best if not THE best, so I pencil him in at the top of my personal list. And assume he could easily give Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, Randy Johnson a run for their money.

I found this morning some info about how the recently revealed numbers came to be.

"...bless those that spent more than 3 years digging through newspapers and other relics is search of the box scores to make it happen."

Ok, alright. Sounds like perhaps enough data has been recently been found to formulate some statistical legitimacy. But is it enough to warrant the new "set in stone" stats to be forever more regarded as gospel.

And the records - we are talking Major League Baseball MLB official records, are we not ? The Negro Leagues were not MLB. Kind of like in basketball, the ABA records are ABA records and not NBA records. To anoint an ABA record holder the now new king of an NBA stat record is not correct. There are different Leagues, different leagues have different records and different leagues have overall different talent levels. I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

Although I can now better acknowledge and praise the accomplishments of Negro League players, I still find it difficult to incorporate the numbers we do have and rewrite the record books of MLB.

I've done some newspaper research on the career of Dick "Cannonball" Redding using newspapers.com. There is a lot more out there than many people realize. Years ago this was only available through very tedious work at libraries looking up records on microfilm. Now an incredible number of newspapers have been scanned and are searchable (albeit not 100% perfectly.) This is a world of difference.

The rules of the game have literally changed and we include stats from times when the game was radically different. The early MLB games did not have great record keeping.

Additionally, these records are not presented as "MLB" records.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

The problem with this argument is the fallacy that a contest that always ends in a scoreless tie should be considered a sport, let alone a professional one.

[Touch'EmAll]

Confused - said not presented as MLB records. Just looked mlb.com website - now listed #1 lifetime batting avg. Josh Gibson.

[GasHouseGang]

I just wonder about a league like the PCL. According to the Baseball Hall Of Fame:

"The Pacific Coast League eventually would be regarded by many as “the third major league,” and prompt MLB to finally realize in 1958 that there was a geographic void to be filled, resulting in the relocation of the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles and the Giants from Upper Manhattan to San Francisco.

It seems to be virtually forgotten by most folks today. But years before expanding west, these teams had many excellent players. Is there any push to recognize the PCL stats along with the regular Major League stats or to combine them for some of the players that performed there and in the Majors? I'm not trying to change the subject, but it seems like it might be a similar situation.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I just wonder about a league like the PCL. According to the Baseball Hall Of Fame:

"The Pacific Coast League eventually would be regarded by many as “the third major league,” and prompt MLB to finally realize in 1958 that there was a geographic void to be filled, resulting in the relocation of the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles and the Giants from Upper Manhattan to San Francisco.

It seems to be virtually forgotten by most folks today. But years before expanding west, these teams had many excellent players. Is there any push to recognize the PCL stats along with the regular Major League stats or to combine them for some of the players that performed there and in the Majors? I'm not trying to change the subject, but it seems like it might be a similar situation.

Some of those near-200 game PCL seasons would really do a number on some records.

Time to stock up on Arnold "Jigger" Statz cards!

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Time to stock up on Arnold "Jigger" Statz cards!

Works for me.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Confused - said not presented as MLB records. Just looked mlb.com website - now listed #1 lifetime batting avg. Josh Gibson.

The article I read in the Athletic indicated that there is a difference between MLB the brand (which is the AL and NL) and The Major Leagues. I don't know whether that will prove to be semantics or not. In light of what you are mentioning, it seems like it might be.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

All good points, and I am reconsidering my positions. I'm also wondering if there could come a time when the game has become truly global and more and more Japanese, Latin, and other players have proven themselves the equals of MLB players, if a similar attempt might not be mounted to go back and assign some similar records to the great players of those leagues. I don't know why not. And I do appreciate this discussion for providing some very interesting grist for the endless mill of the "Hot Stove Leagues."

Start buying Oh and Ichiro cards. ")

[jayshum]

Here's a column by Jay Jaffe that talks about what was done.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-day-...s/#more-438280

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Start buying Oh and Ichiro cards. ")

Congratulations to anyone holding some Josh Gibson 1974 Laughlin Old Time Black Stars cards. I was shocked when I was looked at some recent auctions several days ago. I am already stunned by a current one up for grabs.

I admit that I have never really followed that set too closely, but the whole set seems to have exploded from when I remember it being available for next to nothing.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Congratulations to anyone holding some Josh Gibson 1974 Laughlin Old Time Black Stars cards. I was shocked when I was looked at some recent auctions several days ago. I am already stunned by a current one up for grabs.

I admit that I have never really followed that set too closely, but the whole set seems to have exploded from when I remember it being available for next to nothing.

Yes, I missed the boat. I was looking for one before I had any clue that Gibson would be in the news shortly. Now I'll be waiting a while.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

All good points, and I am reconsidering my positions. I'm also wondering if there could come a time when the game has become truly global and more and more Japanese, Latin, and other players have proven themselves the equals of MLB players, if a similar attempt might not be mounted to go back and assign some similar records to the great players of those leagues. I don't know why not. And I do appreciate this discussion for providing some very interesting grist for the endless mill of the "Hot Stove Leagues."

I really appreciate the response and the discussion as well and have also learned from the conversation.

I think it is an interesting question about whether baseball at some point in time will look to incorporate international records under one umbrella.

I do agree that the combining of the records, even if the players are of similar caliber, introduces other issues which make the issue far more complex.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I really appreciate the response and the discussion as well and have also learned from the conversation.

I think it is an interesting question about whether baseball at some point in time will look to incorporate international records under one umbrella.

I do agree that the combining of the records, even if the players are of similar caliber, introduces other issues which make the issue far more complex.

I'd hesitate to say "Never" but It's something I believe when It comes to what I bolded.

The Negro leagues are a different entity. Yes the scheduling was inconsistent, but quite literally the only reason they existed was because Black people, weren't allowed to play in the Majors.

The Major Leagues is the pinnacle of baseball. We cannot count international records because of inferior competition. Every pro baseball player dreams of making the majors. I don't think the NPB, KBO etc is capable of hitting that level of talent.