Take Note, Ty Cobb Fans

[Touch'EmAll]

A concept I was struggling with is: Where is the data coming from, and how valid, accurate and complete is the data.

Years ago I tried to obtain stats for Satchell Paige. At the time, there wasn't much data, if any to be found. Chalk it up to go with the stories (decent amount of first account stories) and judge from there. Not much argument Paige was among the very best if not THE best, so I pencil him in at the top of my personal list. And assume he could easily give Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, Randy Johnson a run for their money.

I found this morning some info about how the recently revealed numbers came to be.

"...bless those that spent more than 3 years digging through newspapers and other relics is search of the box scores to make it happen."

Ok, alright. Sounds like perhaps enough data has been recently been found to formulate some statistical legitimacy. But is it enough to warrant the new "set in stone" stats to be forever more regarded as gospel.

And the records - we are talking Major League Baseball MLB official records, are we not ? The Negro Leagues were not MLB. Kind of like in basketball, the ABA records are ABA records and not NBA records. To anoint an ABA record holder the now new king of an NBA stat record is not correct. There are different Leagues, different leagues have different records and different leagues have overall different talent levels. I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

Although I can now better acknowledge and praise the accomplishments of Negro League players, I still find it difficult to incorporate the numbers we do have and rewrite the record books of MLB.

[tjisonline]

Well said.

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

A concept I was struggling with is: Where is the data coming from, and how valid, accurate and complete is the data.

Years ago I tried to obtain stats for Satchell Paige. At the time, there wasn't much data, if any to be found. Chalk it up to go with the stories (decent amount of first account stories) and judge from there. Not much argument Paige was among the very best if not THE best, so I pencil him in at the top of my personal list. And assume he could easily give Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, Randy Johnson a run for their money.

I found this morning some info about how the recently revealed numbers came to be.

"...bless those that spent more than 3 years digging through newspapers and other relics is search of the box scores to make it happen."

Ok, alright. Sounds like perhaps enough data has been recently been found to formulate some statistical legitimacy. But is it enough to warrant the new "set in stone" stats to be forever more regarded as gospel.

And the records - we are talking Major League Baseball MLB official records, are we not ? The Negro Leagues were not MLB. Kind of like in basketball, the ABA records are ABA records and not NBA records. To anoint an ABA record holder the now new king of an NBA stat record is not correct. There are different Leagues, different leagues have different records and different leagues have overall different talent levels. I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

Although I can now better acknowledge and praise the accomplishments of Negro League players, I still find it difficult to incorporate the numbers we do have and rewrite the record books of MLB.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

A concept I was struggling with is: Where is the data coming from, and how valid, accurate and complete is the data.

Years ago I tried to obtain stats for Satchell Paige. At the time, there wasn't much data, if any to be found. Chalk it up to go with the stories (decent amount of first account stories) and judge from there. Not much argument Paige was among the very best if not THE best, so I pencil him in at the top of my personal list. And assume he could easily give Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, Randy Johnson a run for their money.

I found this morning some info about how the recently revealed numbers came to be.

"...bless those that spent more than 3 years digging through newspapers and other relics is search of the box scores to make it happen."

Ok, alright. Sounds like perhaps enough data has been recently been found to formulate some statistical legitimacy. But is it enough to warrant the new "set in stone" stats to be forever more regarded as gospel.

And the records - we are talking Major League Baseball MLB official records, are we not ? The Negro Leagues were not MLB. Kind of like in basketball, the ABA records are ABA records and not NBA records. To anoint an ABA record holder the now new king of an NBA stat record is not correct. There are different Leagues, different leagues have different records and different leagues have overall different talent levels. I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

Although I can now better acknowledge and praise the accomplishments of Negro League players, I still find it difficult to incorporate the numbers we do have and rewrite the record books of MLB.

I've done some newspaper research on the career of Dick "Cannonball" Redding using newspapers.com. There is a lot more out there than many people realize. Years ago this was only available through very tedious work at libraries looking up records on microfilm. Now an incredible number of newspapers have been scanned and are searchable (albeit not 100% perfectly.) This is a world of difference.

The rules of the game have literally changed and we include stats from times when the game was radically different. The early MLB games did not have great record keeping.

Additionally, these records are not presented as "MLB" records.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

I am not a soccer guy, but professional soccer may also have different leagues. Again, is it appropriate we blend the leagues and their stats to come up with correct and official "together" records.

The problem with this argument is the fallacy that a contest that always ends in a scoreless tie should be considered a sport, let alone a professional one.

[Touch'EmAll]

Confused - said not presented as MLB records. Just looked mlb.com website - now listed #1 lifetime batting avg. Josh Gibson.

[GasHouseGang]

I just wonder about a league like the PCL. According to the Baseball Hall Of Fame:

"The Pacific Coast League eventually would be regarded by many as “the third major league,” and prompt MLB to finally realize in 1958 that there was a geographic void to be filled, resulting in the relocation of the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles and the Giants from Upper Manhattan to San Francisco.

It seems to be virtually forgotten by most folks today. But years before expanding west, these teams had many excellent players. Is there any push to recognize the PCL stats along with the regular Major League stats or to combine them for some of the players that performed there and in the Majors? I'm not trying to change the subject, but it seems like it might be a similar situation.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I just wonder about a league like the PCL. According to the Baseball Hall Of Fame:

"The Pacific Coast League eventually would be regarded by many as “the third major league,” and prompt MLB to finally realize in 1958 that there was a geographic void to be filled, resulting in the relocation of the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles and the Giants from Upper Manhattan to San Francisco.

It seems to be virtually forgotten by most folks today. But years before expanding west, these teams had many excellent players. Is there any push to recognize the PCL stats along with the regular Major League stats or to combine them for some of the players that performed there and in the Majors? I'm not trying to change the subject, but it seems like it might be a similar situation.

Some of those near-200 game PCL seasons would really do a number on some records.

Time to stock up on Arnold "Jigger" Statz cards!

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Time to stock up on Arnold "Jigger" Statz cards!

Works for me.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Confused - said not presented as MLB records. Just looked mlb.com website - now listed #1 lifetime batting avg. Josh Gibson.

The article I read in the Athletic indicated that there is a difference between MLB the brand (which is the AL and NL) and The Major Leagues. I don't know whether that will prove to be semantics or not. In light of what you are mentioning, it seems like it might be.