Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GregC

The ML rep was coming from the East Coast and the cards were located in California; that is why they were shipped (similar to how high value items are shipped every day).

But the method of transit is also moot, because the items were stolen after they were safely delivered. The package was supposed to be held in a secure place by hotel management.

Memory Lane could have had a California-based employee drive the package to the hotel by Sherman tank or armed convoy, and still, once hotel management was asked to store the package in a secure room, it could/would have been stolen just the same.

So don't ask hotel "management" to store the package, have it held at Fed Ex for Joe to pick up, or Fed Ex it to Joe and have him fly out with the cards? In any case, obviously hindsight is 20 20 and nobody will do it this way again I assume.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So don't ask hotel "management" to store the package, have it held at Fed Ex for Joe to pick up, or Fed Ex it to Joe and have him fly out with the cards? In any case, obviously hindsight is 20 20 and nobody will do it this way again I assume.

Say it was held at FedEx for Joe to pick up— can't it get stolen there? Happened to me once.

Say Joe brought them in person, kept them in his room. Goes out for a burger. Can't the room safe get burglarized?

Say Joe kept the box on his person at all times. He can get robbed. Then what— the internet says he's dumb for carrying them, why didn't he put them in a safe or ask the hotel to put them in the management's safe.

Like you said, Peter: hindsight is 20/20. People on the internet can Monday Morning QB this thing a billion different ways. But thieves are gonna thief.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Say it was held at FedEx for Joe to pick up— can't it get stolen there? Happened to me once.

Say Joe brought them in person, kept them in his room. Goes out for a burger. Can't the room safe get burglarized?

Say Joe kept the box on his person at all times. He can get robbed. Then what— the internet says he's dumb for carrying them, why didn't he put them in a safe or ask the hotel to put them in the management's safe.

Like you said, Peter: hindsight is 20/20. People on the internet can Monday Morning QB this thing a billion different ways. But thieves are gonna thief.

They could get stolen at the show too. A Fed Ex plane could crash. But the issue is what makes the most sense, not what is foolproof.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Say it was held at FedEx for Joe to pick up— can't it get stolen there? Happened to me once.

Say Joe brought them in person, kept them in his room. Goes out for a burger. Can't the room safe get burglarized?

Say Joe kept the box on his person at all times. He can get robbed. Then what— the internet says he's dumb for carrying them, why didn't he put them in a safe or ask the hotel to put them in the management's safe.

Like you said, Peter: hindsight is 20/20. People on the internet can Monday Morning QB this thing a billion different ways. But thieves are gonna thief.

In a perfect world we should be able to expect to not get robbed but that is why there are safes, vaults, safe deposit boxes, alarms, etc. At the end of the day, it is the person(s) who is/are in possession of the valuables to take the appropriate steps to safeguard them at all times.

I cannot see how sending the box, which could have been carried on a flight, to a Best Western in the middle of nowhere USA to sit and wait for an agent of the company to show up 3 days later to claim them meets the level of safeguarding. To me it is careless but I am sure we are missing lots of details.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

In a perfect world we should be able to expect to not get robbed but that is why there are safes, vaults, safe deposit boxes, alarms, etc. At the end of the day, it is the person(s) who is/are in possession of the valuables to take the appropriate steps to safeguard them at all times.

I cannot see how sending the box, which could have been carried on a flight, to a Best Western in the middle of nowhere USA to sit and wait for an agent of the company to show up 3 days later to claim them meets the level of safeguarding. To me it is careless but I am sure we are missing lots of details.

I hope we do get more information about the entire scenario because I for one have wayyyyy more questions than answers right now.

[parkplace33]

All this talk of hotels did make me think of this vintage commercial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCTaUFXpP8

[steve B]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

All this talk of hotels did make me think of this vintage commercial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCTaUFXpP8

My first reaction was "vintage? that was really recent."
Then I saw that it was posted 9 years ago.....

____ I'm getting old.

[Kingcobb]

Is there a list of the cards that were stolen?

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Say it was held at FedEx for Joe to pick up— can't it get stolen there? Happened to me once.

Say Joe brought them in person, kept them in his room. Goes out for a burger. Can't the room safe get burglarized?

Say Joe kept the box on his person at all times. He can get robbed. Then what— the internet says he's dumb for carrying them, why didn't he put them in a safe or ask the hotel to put them in the management's safe.

Like you said, Peter: hindsight is 20/20. People on the internet can Monday Morning QB this thing a billion different ways. But thieves are gonna thief.

Obviously, any imaginable transportation scenario would yield some chance for loss, so utilizing the scenario with the least amount of risk would make the most sense. If ML picks up this package directly from the carrier an entire entity is eliminated (the BW) from the "chain of possession" which is going to significantly reduce the risk for loss.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

I'm curious to know if these cards were part of the stolen box:

D304 E Collins PSA 3 = $14,298
D304 Lajoie PSA 4 = $20,934
D304 Mathewson PSA 3 = $42,290
D304 Wagner PSA 3 = $50,339

An SGC 3 D304 Wagner sold in REA in August of last year for $11,700...

Curiosity killed the cat but the above prices made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Aaron Seefeldt

I'm curious to know if these cards were part of the stolen box:

D304 E Collins PSA 3 = $14,298
D304 Lajoie PSA 4 = $20,934
D304 Mathewson PSA 3 = $42,290
D304 Wagner PSA 3 = $50,339

An SGC 3 D304 Wagner sold in REA in August of last year for $11,700...

Curiosity killed the cat but the above prices made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

And a higher grade Matty was sitting on eBay for much much cheaper.

Maybe the thieves bid them up?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Bicem

And a higher grade Matty was sitting on eBay for much much cheaper.

Maybe the thieves bid them up?

I think someone said that one was gobbled up after the auction ran. That buyer might not be happy if the sale was one of the phantom ones.

[Jewish-collector]

How do the big Art auction houses transport/store high end material for Art shows & auctions ?

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Aaron Seefeldt

I'm curious to know if these cards were part of the stolen box:

D304 E Collins PSA 3 = $14,298
D304 Lajoie PSA 4 = $20,934
D304 Mathewson PSA 3 = $42,290
D304 Wagner PSA 3 = $50,339

An SGC 3 D304 Wagner sold in REA in August of last year for $11,700...

Curiosity killed the cat but the above prices made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Was the 1910 Tip Top Bread Wagner pose graded PSA 1.5 that auctioned for $81K part of the stolen lot?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Obviously, any imaginable transportation scenario would yield some chance for loss, so utilizing the scenario with the least amount of risk would make the most sense. If ML picks up this package directly from the carrier an entire entity is eliminated (the BW) from the "chain of possession" which is going to significantly reduce the risk for loss.

Worth pointing out is the fact that not all flavors of theft are the same from the perspective of the insurance company. Some forms of theft are much more likely than others, which is why they impose different maximum payouts for different scenarios.

If I brought my cards over to a friend's house and asked him to watch them for me while I went to Disneyland for a few days, I can assure you that my insurance policy is going to give me the middle finger if I were to file a theft claim after his meth-head cousin stole my box of cards. But they would honor my claim if I left them in my safe and my home was burglarized and my safe broken into while we were on vacation.

While this strawman scenario isn't the exact same thing, it's also not that different from what supposedly transpired.

I used to work for a major insurance provider. I wrote algorithms to detect fraudulent claims. Insurance companies are in the business of denying claims, not honoring them. Honoring a claim only occurs after every attempt at denying it has failed. It's all going to come down to the specific language of the policy that details the coverage limits, if any, for when you ship something worth $2 million dollars to a Best Western Plus and ask them to hold it for you until you arrive a few days later. Perhaps they have some sort of rider that covers such egregious acts of negligence, but I certainly wouldn't be as confident as some people here seem to be that ML's loss is covered should they indeed have to file the claim.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So don't ask hotel "management" to store the package, have it held at Fed Ex for Joe to pick up, or Fed Ex it to Joe and have him fly out with the cards? In any case, obviously hindsight is 20 20 and nobody will do it this way again I assume.

Not to mention, that Hotel was probably one of the biggest dumps I have stayed in since the 1970's. Best Western PLUS, they say. Plus what? Bed Bugs? It was like camping. There are no safes in the room. The hot water took 20 minutes to warm up on the top floor. That's only if you gingerly turned it on and the handle didn't come off. The Elevators were out both nights and the tiny staff reflected all of it.

That said, I had a great time but was somewhat apprehensive traveling there with cash and cards. Obviously for good reason.

I probably had one of the best times on this trip than I've had in a long time though. Especially where baseball cards are concerned. So much so, I want to go back next year. I was waiting in the lobby when the detectives were doing follow-up interviews on SAT Afternoon, talking about a "Package" and "video". Now it all makes sense.

I really enjoyed getting to know Joe T and he helped "hard sell" me on a card at Ashish's table before I left. Knowing that Bad MemoryLane is a local company, I bid pretty hard and won 3 great items. First and last time I'll use them. I just confirmed my lots were "not stolen" before I sent my fat check. I'm going to pick-them up in person.

Also, This is really the 2nd year I've utilized auction houses significantly. That said, I'm not overly happy with the entire experience of my losses or wins. My eyes are hurting...I CAN'T SEE giving these clowns 20% buyer premium. It is flat out gouging and not worth the service, IMHO. Get it down to 5% and I'll give them another chance.

I feel terrible for Ryan who has just a tremendous collection. At least he has faith in MemoryLane and is probably why he trusted his prized possession to them in the first place. If he's happy, I'm happy. Good luck Ryan.

Still I've made my last bid at Heretic, Bad MemoryLane and REA. cause I can't win anything @REA anyway.

[Johnny630]

Am I the only one on this board that believes that the bidders on these cards Got a big middle finger from the auction house.

We are truly in a sad state in this industry.

Johnny Marsili

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Am I the only one on this board that believes that the bidders on these cards Got a big middle finger from the auction house.

We are truly in a sad state in this industry.

Johnny Marsili

+1 good luck to anyone trying to recoup cards they sold off in attempt to win something that wasn't there.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Am I the only one on this board that believes that the bidders on these cards Got a big middle finger from the auction house.

We are truly in a sad state in this industry.

Johnny Marsili

ML seems to have been in a no win situation. I think most auction houses are going to err on the side of doing what's best for the consignors if that is different from what is best for the bidders.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

ML seems to have been in a no win situation. I think most auction houses are going to err on the side of doing what's best for the consignors if that is different from what is best for the bidders.

What's best for their eithical duties is to disclose it and end bidding on the stolen cards

Consignor and bidders have all been slighted it needs to be fair this has not been.

ML should have done the right ethical thing. I don't believe that was fully done in this case that's it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

What's best for their eithical duties is to disclose it and end bidding on the stolen cards

Consignor and bidders have all been slighted it needs to be fair this has not been.

ML should have done the right ethical thing. I don't believe that was fully done in this case that's it.

Perhaps, but on the other hand, that potentially means 50+ disputes with consignors about how much to reimburse them, assuming they in fact have coverage disputes with the insurance company over values, not to mention the gut punch that would deal to the rest of the auction.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps, but on the other hand, that potentially means 50+ disputes with consignors about how much to reimburse them, assuming they in fact have coverage disputes with the insurance company over values, not to mention the gut punch that would deal to the rest of the auction.

Peter i respect your views and commentary. This is black and white there is no gray area here for me. I'm not saying you're making defenses for them but doesn't their insurance cover the theft in itself right then and there? Not a sale of cards they do not have in their possession and the end of said auction.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps, but on the other hand, that potentially means 50+ disputes with consignors about how much to reimburse them, assuming they in fact have coverage disputes with the insurance company over values, not to mention the gut punch that would deal to the rest of the auction.

What I hear you saying, which is clear, is that ML did what was easiest and best for THEM. That does not mean what they did was ethical or right.

They auctioned off cards they did not have. They created fake sales to serve a purpose other than to complete sales. Isn't that, basically, lying to bidders? It certainly is misleading them to a huge degree, and I don't see how that can be defended.

What should've happened:

1. Immediately close those auction listings.
2. If the cards are not recovered, establish values for insurance purposes the standard way. It's done all the time, without staging fake auction listings.
3. If the cards are recovered, offer the consigners a return, or a discounted listing in a subsequent auction.

But don't use your trusting bidders for your own purposes, to their detriment.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps, but on the other hand, that potentially means 50+ disputes with consignors about how much to reimburse them, assuming they in fact have coverage disputes with the insurance company over values, not to mention the gut punch that would deal to the rest of the auction.

It’s definitely more convenient to cover it up and hold a fake auction.

This is the only hobby I’ve been a part of where convenience is considered an appropriate reason to do the wrong thing, to cover things up, to lie, or to host frauds. I’m sure it’s not the only one, but my other hobbies have been so much cleaner than this.

That it is more convenient to do X is not really a justification for X, and we all would think that if I was the seller instead of an auction house many people like.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think most auction houses are going to err on the side of doing what's best for the consignors if that is different from what is best for the bidders.

In PA, our fiduciary duty is, indeed, to our consignors.

[GaryPassamonte]

How are auction winnings of this high dollar value transferred to the winning bidder? Are they usually mailed or picked up? I would think most winners of a $2 million dollar card would pick it up? I'm just curious.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Not to mention, that Hotel was probably one of the biggest dumps I have stayed in since the 1970's. Best Western PLUS, they say. Plus what? Bed Bugs? It was like camping. There are no safes in the room. The hot water took 20 minutes to warm up on the top floor. That's only if you gingerly turned it on and the handle didn't come off. The Elevators were out both nights and the tiny staff reflected all of it.

That said, I had a great time but was somewhat apprehensive traveling there with cash and cards. Obviously for good reason.

I probably had one of the best times on this trip than I've had in a long time though. Especially where baseball cards are concerned. So much so, I want to go back next year. I was waiting in the lobby when the detectives were doing follow-up interviews on SAT Afternoon, talking about a "Package" and "video". Now it all makes sense.

I really enjoyed getting to know Joe T and he helped "hard sell" me on a card at Ashish's table before I left. Knowing that Bad MemoryLane is a local company, I bid pretty hard and won 3 great items. First and last time I'll use them. I just confirmed my lots were "not stolen" before I sent my fat check. I'm going to pick-them up in person.

Also, This is really the 2nd year I've utilized auction houses significantly. That said, I'm not overly happy with the entire experience of my losses or wins. My eyes are hurting...I CAN'T SEE giving these clowns 20% buyer premium. It is flat out gouging and not worth the service, IMHO. Get it down to 5% and I'll give them another chance.

I feel terrible for Ryan who has just a tremendous collection. At least he has faith in MemoryLane and is probably why he trusted his prized possession to them in the first place. If he's happy, I'm happy. Good luck Ryan.

Still I've made my last bid at Heretic, Bad MemoryLane and REA. cause I can't win anything @REA anyway.

Which card did you purchase from hard sell?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Which card did you purchase from hard sell?

I PM'd you!