Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

How many do you have? Outed slabs, I mean, not stickers.

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Currently, I don't have any. I plan on adding as many as I can find though. It'll be fun! I might even send her some before and after pictures myself to gain entry into her prestigious "database". Maybe we can get PSA to create the Tiffany Cards registry?

[Snowman]

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

[perezfan]

I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".

PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit?

I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others.

You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".

PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit?

I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others.

You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.

Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

Have you decided on what you are going to do with this card?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Have you decided on what you are going to do with this card?

I'm still weighing my options.

I realize that inquiring minds need to know, and dammit, we need action!

But I'm not seeing the need to move quickly here. I do have the card back from PSA now, and it's resting in its former place of glory in my primary display case with my other mainline Mays base cards, although I continue to glare at it suspiciously every time I pass by it, just for good measure.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm still weighing my options.

I realize that inquiring minds need to know, and dammit, we need action!

But I'm not seeing the need to move quickly here. I do have the card back from PSA now, and it's resting in its former place of glory in my primary display case with my other mainline Mays base cards, although I continue to glare at it suspiciously every time I pass by it, just for good measure.

Would you feel better if you were to learn that in fact every card in your display case had actually been cleaned, altered, or restored in some way?

[Fuddjcal]

BUT BUT BUT...The upcharges are for insurance for things like this..

What a scam. Sorry about this Nicolo. I know how much you enjoy their registry but I'd say F you to them for good and pull your shit off that stupid site too.

[aljurgela]

Please see the video that I posted about it on YT...

https://youtu.be/MAOe35gNd74?si=cYGMp-W8Ha6r_AFW

[raulus]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

Please see the video that I posted about it on YT...

https://youtu.be/MAOe35gNd74?si=cYGMp-W8Ha6r_AFW

Thanks for sharing. Glad to see that you ended up with a great result. At the same time, it just makes me a bit more irritated that they didn't seem willing to go there with my card.

I suppose there's always the possibility that the BODA investigator got it wrong, although the detail provided by BODA seems awfully convincing, so it's hard to feel real confident that PSA isn't just gaslighting me.

[aljurgela]

I really do not know or understand your case, but I just thought that I would share my experience. Best of luck on resolution, seems like a tough one.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by raulus

Thanks for sharing. Glad to see that you ended up with a great result. At the same time, it just makes me a bit more irritated that they didn't seem willing to go there with my card.

I suppose there's always the possibility that the BODA investigator got it wrong, although the detail provided by BODA seems awfully convincing, so it's hard to feel real confident that PSA isn't just gaslighting me.

Not to me it doesn't. There are too many differences.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not to me it doesn't. There are too many differences.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post correctly. Based on this image, the edges are fingerprinted as the same card. The rough cut wear is in exactly the same places.

[Prince Hal]

What/Who is BODA?

[JustinD]

*double post

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

What/Who is BODA?

It's a group on Blowout dedicated to researching and identifying doctored and regraded cards. They do good work for the hobby in my perspective.

BODA - "Blowout Detective Agency"

Tiffany Cards posting on this thread (I assume this is the same person as the site) maintains a database of all identified doctored cards for purchasers.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

Again, an asset to buyers like myself who care...likely hated by doctors.

[bobbyw8469]

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's a group on Blowout dedicated to researching and identifying doctored and regraded cards. They do good work for the hobby in my perspective.

BODA - "Blowout Detective Agency"

Tiffany Cards posting on this thread (I assume this is the same person as the site) maintains a database of all identified doctored cards for purchasers.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

Again, an asset to buyers like myself who care...likely hated by doctors.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

Then that evidence it’s wrong should be aired. Expecting 100% perfection when dealing with sample sizes of many thousands is just a roundabout way of trying not to do the thing. They have done a great job, much better than the purported experts selling their authority.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

My favorites are the ones where BODA says, "I couldn't find what they did to this card specifically, but it used to be an 8 and now it's a 9, and the serial number is only 57 certs away from this other card over here, and that one was a 5 and now it's a 7, so they must have done something to it."

Or, "We know this card was purchased by Gary Moser because the eBay buyer's masked ID is "w***1" LOL. Nevermind the fact that there are 134 million active users on eBay and only 1296 unique masked IDs, which means there are on average 103,395 different users for each masked ID. That is until eBay started completely jumbling ALL user IDs into completely random characters (don't believe me, just go look at your own masked ID from cards you know you won after logging out). You'll have a different masked ID every time and the characters won't even correspond to your username. Someone said that VCP doesn't have random IDs for buyers, but even then, we're still talking about many thousands of people with the same VCP IDs. I proved this all on Blowhard years ago, but of course, nobody cared.

[raulus]

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If they had graded it right the first time, you never would have bought it. Why should you take a hit if the value dropped since then?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If they had graded it right the first time, you never would have bought it. Why should you take a hit if the value dropped since then?

Values are way up since I bought it back in like 2017/2018. Just wish I had gotten this pushed through earlier so that I could have taken advantage of peak values from 12-24 months ago.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

Values are way up since I bought it back in like 2017/2018. Just wish I had gotten this pushed through earlier so that I could have taken advantage of peak values from 12-24 months ago.

Would be very interesting if they try to offer you 2017/2018 compensation values since that's when you bought it. I really hope they don't try to pull that.

I suspect that this thread likely has something to do with why they changed their mind about this card. It's difficult for me to imagine someone as experienced as Reza looking at this card and not catching the recoloring job last time, but we're all human. You'd think if someone sent a card like that in for review of alterations that they would be thorough.

Either way, congrats on what sounds like it will be a satisfactory resolution!

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

Nicolo, glad that this is progressing. I must say that I am floored that they changed their opinion. Please keep us posted on what you and they agree to.

[Johnny630]

Great News !!! Good Job PSA Head Grader Reza!

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

Just another example of the excellent work done by BODA. It amazes me how some people will continue to dismiss their findings, tell people to never trust online image comparison, suggest they are slandering cards or attempt to silence or discredit their work.


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[raulus]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Just another example of the excellent work done by BODA. It amazes me how some people will continue to dismiss their findings, tell people to never trust online image comparison, suggest they are slandering cards or attempt to silence or discredit their work.


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Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

33 years of grading cards. It adds up.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

100% agreed. My guess (total guess by me just going by auction catalogs & social media), I think somewhere between 33% to 50% of medium to higher graded PSA encased cards have been altered. Getting harder to tell nowadays since scanned card images have photo settings boosted like brightness,, contrast, blur, etc…

That’s part of the reason why comparing before & after pics of cards in diff slabs are very difficult & that’s even before taking into account the diff source image resolutions. For people who don’t know, there’s a lot of coding & math behind images & PDF that get even more complicated / distorted when you resize & save as diff formats. That’s why simple animated gif comparisons don’t usually work

It’s like Kelso’s quote from the film Heat.

* Neil McCauley : how do you get this information?
* Kelso : It comes to you, this stuff just flies through the air, they send this information "beamed" out over the f’in place, you just got to know how to grab it, see, I know how to grab it.

In this case, knowing where to “grab it” is social media. Higher positioned people in the hobby post pics all the time of altered cards whether they unknowingly bought older cert PSA slabbed cards that way or not.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

I said this 5 years ago and was laughed at...

"It's ALL a Billion Dollar Fraud". Pretty funny in retrospect, huh?