Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time

[perezfan]

I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".

PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit?

I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others.

You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".

PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit?

I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others.

You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.

Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

Have you decided on what you are going to do with this card?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Have you decided on what you are going to do with this card?

I'm still weighing my options.

I realize that inquiring minds need to know, and dammit, we need action!

But I'm not seeing the need to move quickly here. I do have the card back from PSA now, and it's resting in its former place of glory in my primary display case with my other mainline Mays base cards, although I continue to glare at it suspiciously every time I pass by it, just for good measure.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm still weighing my options.

I realize that inquiring minds need to know, and dammit, we need action!

But I'm not seeing the need to move quickly here. I do have the card back from PSA now, and it's resting in its former place of glory in my primary display case with my other mainline Mays base cards, although I continue to glare at it suspiciously every time I pass by it, just for good measure.

Would you feel better if you were to learn that in fact every card in your display case had actually been cleaned, altered, or restored in some way?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you feel better if you were to learn that in fact every card in your display case had actually been cleaned, altered, or restored in some way?

I’m guessing that this is hyperbole, unless you’re casting a very wide net for your definition. For example, I will hazard a guess that my 2010 Upper Deck Buster Posey probably hasn’t had much work done. And it is in one of my display cases.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I’m guessing that this is hyperbole, unless you’re casting a very wide net for your definition. For example, I will hazard a guess that my 2010 Upper Deck Buster Posey probably hasn’t had much work done. And it is in one of my display cases.

I just meant it as a hypothetical. Like if you had 100 cards that you love and found out one of them was altered, it'd be easy to see how you might feel some type of way about that card every time you look at it. But what if you could magically know the true history of all 100 cards and you learned that they'd all in fact been improved in some way. What then? Would you just walk away from the hobby and sell your collection or would you just throw your hands up and say, "well, it is what it is" and just learn to accept them as they are?

[Fuddjcal]

BUT BUT BUT...The upcharges are for insurance for things like this..

What a scam. Sorry about this Nicolo. I know how much you enjoy their registry but I'd say F you to them for good and pull your shit off that stupid site too.

[aljurgela]

Please see the video that I posted about it on YT...

https://youtu.be/MAOe35gNd74?si=cYGMp-W8Ha6r_AFW

[raulus]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

Please see the video that I posted about it on YT...

https://youtu.be/MAOe35gNd74?si=cYGMp-W8Ha6r_AFW

Thanks for sharing. Glad to see that you ended up with a great result. At the same time, it just makes me a bit more irritated that they didn't seem willing to go there with my card.

I suppose there's always the possibility that the BODA investigator got it wrong, although the detail provided by BODA seems awfully convincing, so it's hard to feel real confident that PSA isn't just gaslighting me.

[aljurgela]

I really do not know or understand your case, but I just thought that I would share my experience. Best of luck on resolution, seems like a tough one.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by raulus

Thanks for sharing. Glad to see that you ended up with a great result. At the same time, it just makes me a bit more irritated that they didn't seem willing to go there with my card.

I suppose there's always the possibility that the BODA investigator got it wrong, although the detail provided by BODA seems awfully convincing, so it's hard to feel real confident that PSA isn't just gaslighting me.

Not to me it doesn't. There are too many differences.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not to me it doesn't. There are too many differences.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post correctly. Based on this image, the edges are fingerprinted as the same card. The rough cut wear is in exactly the same places.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post correctly. Based on this image, the edges are fingerprinted as the same card. The rough cut wear is in exactly the same places.

Look at the dot that magically appears under his outstretched arm with the glove on the 8.5. Why is it not there under the 7?

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Look at the dot that magically appears under his outstretched arm with the glove on the 8.5. Why is it not there under the 7?

That really could be something on the slab or scanner and not on the card. But definitely worth figuring out as it is a noticeable difference.

[JollyElm]

Aside from all the matching white wear on the edges, that small, white angled slash 'pointing' to the bottom right corner really serves as a telltale sign with this particular card. That is a unique feature here, as I looked at a crapload of these cards to see if it was a recurring print anomaly (which would at least open up the possibility of the 'before' and 'after' cards being different), but found no other examples.

Originally Posted by swarmee

[Prince Hal]

What/Who is BODA?

[JustinD]

*double post

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

What/Who is BODA?

It's a group on Blowout dedicated to researching and identifying doctored and regraded cards. They do good work for the hobby in my perspective.

BODA - "Blowout Detective Agency"

Tiffany Cards posting on this thread (I assume this is the same person as the site) maintains a database of all identified doctored cards for purchasers.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

Again, an asset to buyers like myself who care...likely hated by doctors.

[bobbyw8469]

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's a group on Blowout dedicated to researching and identifying doctored and regraded cards. They do good work for the hobby in my perspective.

BODA - "Blowout Detective Agency"

Tiffany Cards posting on this thread (I assume this is the same person as the site) maintains a database of all identified doctored cards for purchasers.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

Again, an asset to buyers like myself who care...likely hated by doctors.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

Then that evidence it’s wrong should be aired. Expecting 100% perfection when dealing with sample sizes of many thousands is just a roundabout way of trying not to do the thing. They have done a great job, much better than the purported experts selling their authority.

[perezfan]

Even with the “huge differences” in the Chico Fernandez card shown in post 114, one can easily (and immediately) determine that it’s the same exact card.

The number of mistakes BODA has made can probably be counted on one hand. And they’ve called out hundreds (if not thousands) of alterations residing in numbered slabs.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Even with the “huge differences” in the Chico Fernandez card shown in post 114, one can easily (and immediately) determine that it’s the same exact card.

The number of mistakes BODA has made can probably be counted on one hand. And they’ve called out hundreds (if not thousands) of alterations residing in numbered slabs.

The mistakes will get more frequent because of relying on scans. However, we just got to hope that cards have key identification marks that do not get distorted w/ each new scan & online upload.

Regarding my Chico card and “Huge differences”, it was supposed to be identified as the same card . The point of sharing those two images is to show the differences of a scanned card(even by the same grader).

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

My favorites are the ones where BODA says, "I couldn't find what they did to this card specifically, but it used to be an 8 and now it's a 9, and the serial number is only 57 certs away from this other card over here, and that one was a 5 and now it's a 7, so they must have done something to it."

Or, "We know this card was purchased by Gary Moser because the eBay buyer's masked ID is "w***1" LOL. Nevermind the fact that there are 134 million active users on eBay and only 1296 unique masked IDs, which means there are on average 103,395 different users for each masked ID. That is until eBay started completely jumbling ALL user IDs into completely random characters (don't believe me, just go look at your own masked ID from cards you know you won after logging out). You'll have a different masked ID every time and the characters won't even correspond to your username. Someone said that VCP doesn't have random IDs for buyers, but even then, we're still talking about many thousands of people with the same VCP IDs. I proved this all on Blowhard years ago, but of course, nobody cared.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

My favorites are the ones where BODA says, "I couldn't find what they did to this card specifically, but it used to be an 8 and now it's a 9, and the serial number is only 57 certs away from this other card over here, and that one was a 5 and now it's a 7, so they must have done something to it."

Or, "We know this card was purchased by Gary Moser because the eBay buyer's masked ID is "w***1" LOL. Nevermind the fact that there are 134 million active users on eBay and only 1296 unique masked IDs, which means there are on average 103,395 different users for each masked ID. That is until eBay started completely jumbling ALL user IDs into completely random characters (don't believe me, just go look at your own masked ID from cards you know you won after logging out). You'll have a different masked ID every time and the characters won't even correspond to your username. Someone said that VCP doesn't have random IDs for buyers, but even then, we're still talking about many thousands of people with the same VCP IDs. I proved this all on Blowhard years ago, but of course, nobody cared.

If a card was sold by PWCC, and it's the same card that someone purchased in a lower grade and altered, and Moser is one name associated with the masked ID, and this happens over and over and over again and the same masked ID keeps coming up, I would say as a matter of common sense the chances that it was some other random ebay user or users buying the cards and not Moser are pretty low -- even assuming you're right on this information. I don't think you're looking at this the right way and it feels like a red herring. These are not independent events, although maybe that's not the technically right way to put it. How many of these other users associated with the same masked ID are likely to be card doctors? Zero I bet.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a card was sold by PWCC, and it's the same card that someone purchased in a lower grade and altered, and Moser is one name associated with the masked ID, and this happens over and over and over again and the same masked ID keeps coming up, I would say as a matter of common sense the chances that it was some other random ebay user or users buying the cards and not Moser are pretty low -- even assuming you're right on this information. I don't think you're looking at this the right way and it feels like a red herring. These are not independent events, although maybe that's not the technically right way to put it. How many of these other users associated with the same masked ID are likely to be card doctors? Zero I bet.

I'm not saying Moser wasn't tied to any of these cards. I'm sure he was. And yes, having a trail of other pieces of evidence that are often tied together certainly increases the likelihood of particular people being the culprit being much higher. I'm more speaking in general about their overall approach to tying people together and using Moser as an example because everyone seems to know his name. But many of the cards they call out do not have multiple roads of evidence all leading to Rome.

And again, for the record in case anyone forgot, I'm not a fan of Moser or card trimming in general. I think there's a world of difference between cleaning a card and trimming a card.

[raulus]

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If they had graded it right the first time, you never would have bought it. Why should you take a hit if the value dropped since then?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If they had graded it right the first time, you never would have bought it. Why should you take a hit if the value dropped since then?

Values are way up since I bought it back in like 2017/2018. Just wish I had gotten this pushed through earlier so that I could have taken advantage of peak values from 12-24 months ago.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

Values are way up since I bought it back in like 2017/2018. Just wish I had gotten this pushed through earlier so that I could have taken advantage of peak values from 12-24 months ago.

Would be very interesting if they try to offer you 2017/2018 compensation values since that's when you bought it. I really hope they don't try to pull that.

I suspect that this thread likely has something to do with why they changed their mind about this card. It's difficult for me to imagine someone as experienced as Reza looking at this card and not catching the recoloring job last time, but we're all human. You'd think if someone sent a card like that in for review of alterations that they would be thorough.

Either way, congrats on what sounds like it will be a satisfactory resolution!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would be very interesting if they try to offer you 2017/2018 compensation values since that's when you bought it. I really hope they don't try to pull that.

I suspect that this thread likely has something to do with why they changed their mind about this card. It's difficult for me to imagine someone as experienced as Reza looking at this card and not catching the recoloring job last time, but we're all human. You'd think if someone sent a card like that in for review of alterations that they would be thorough.

Either way, congrats on what sounds like it will be a satisfactory resolution!

Sounds like part of the issue was just miscommunication, at least as they explained it to me. In their quest to keep the graders from knowing details about who submitted the card, they withheld a lot of information, and so apparently through the ensuing game of telephone, the only request was to focus on the edges.

I'm inclined to trust their reporting here.

At the same time, for those with a conspiracy bent, it's not difficult to let your mind wander into more nefarious explanations. But often my experience is that the simplest explanation is far more likely than something with a lot more moving parts.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

At the same time, for those with a conspiracy bent, it's not difficult to let your mind wander into more nefarious explanations. But often my experience is that the simplest explanation is far more likely than something with a lot more moving parts.

It's not a conspiracy theory though. We have plenty of data to go on at this point. The simplest explanation is that they don't want to admit they are wrong and don't want to pay out on their guarantee.

[perezfan]

Too bad they couldn't just do the only job they are tasked with the first time around. You should not be the one to take a financial hit for their "mistakes" (at best negligence; at worst dishonesty).

And thank goodness for BODA. Purely for the good of the collecting community (and despite "some people" continually whining about them), they've conducted thousands of hours of painstaking research at zero profit and NO compensation.

Bravo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA explanation seems weak to me, but a good outcome is the most important thing.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

Nicolo, glad that this is progressing. I must say that I am floored that they changed their opinion. Please keep us posted on what you and they agree to.

[Johnny630]

Great News !!! Good Job PSA Head Grader Reza!

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

Just another example of the excellent work done by BODA. It amazes me how some people will continue to dismiss their findings, tell people to never trust online image comparison, suggest they are slandering cards or attempt to silence or discredit their work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Just another example of the excellent work done by BODA. It amazes me how some people will continue to dismiss their findings, tell people to never trust online image comparison, suggest they are slandering cards or attempt to silence or discredit their work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool. I guess you can update the database entry for this one when they send it back in the AA slab.

[Exhibitman]

As a professional cynic, I'd hold the happiness until the money is in hand.

Peter, you are so right on that point. CA does not allow for the recovery of attorneys' fees in civil cases unless there is a contract or a law that provides for it. That makes any lawsuit a self-funded war of attrition with PSA and its wealthy owners. Which is probably why PSA is not concerned with being sued over most altered cards it missed.

If it was my card, I would do one of three things:

1. Sue representing myself and put PSA through a financial meat grinder to force a settlement. Doesn't matter how rich they are if my costs are just my time and some filing fees.

2. Crack the card and resubmit it in person at a National or other show. I would video every step of the process--chain of custody--to prove where the card went every second from in the holder to PSA's custody. if PSA rejects it as altered, it would put PSA in a very uncomfortable position defending the original grade and that might get the case settled quietly and quickly.

3. Sell it as-is with a disclosure to the AH of what happened. Let's be honest here: there is a significant percentage of collectors who do not give a damn what anyone except PSA says and who will simply buy the card for the number on the holder. To them, the rest is just internet trolls stating opinions.