Would you buy a 1933 Goudey Ruth Raw?

[packs]

Does anyone have an example of a convincing reprint they could show? There are several people who have suggested you could print a convincing 1933 Goudey today. Are there any examples? Seems like something somebody would have found worthwhile.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Does anyone have an example of a convincing reprint they could show? There are several people who have suggested you could print a convincing 1933 Goudey today. Are there any examples? Seems like something somebody would have found worthwhile.

They’ve declined to show any of these examples so far. Let’s see them guys, very easy way to prove your point.

[packs]

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

That’s because it is not true, it’s just hobby folklore. An old wives tale that has circulated in some form or other for decades. From the ‘perfect counterfeit’’s of T cards supposedly made in the 50’s or 60’s using original equipment or the version in the 70’s and 80’s featuring unnamed dealers and movers faking many of the big finds (though never specified which finds) of vintage material to more modern versions like the Black Swamp fakes story to todays version of how some also anonymous counterfeiters are or readily can make undetectable fakes.

Nobody in any of these alleged counterfeit groups can ever be given a name. No place, nothing one can possibly fact check or validate. No examples can ever be shown. I have been waiting most of my life for somebody to produce some evidence. It has never happened, because it is not true.

We very well may one day have something like this actually happen, but pretty much every hobby has false tales like this of perfect fakes or crimes or very dramatic events that are always vague, have no evidentiary basis or source, and are just imaginary gossip people made up or talked about and over time get to be stated as if the possibilities are actually true. An evidentiary basis is so much less interesting than gossip, and so the gossip just keeps going stated as if it is true. People by and large believe whatever they like to believe, disconnected from what evidence there is to actually support the notion.

[packs]

One person said they would have no qualms with purchasing raw cards. But they also cast doubt on what I said about it being pretty difficult or impossible to reprint an authentic Goudey card today. If you believed it was possible to print a convincing Goudey today, I would think you'd be more reserved about purchasing raw cards.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

One person said they would have no qualms with purchasing raw cards. But they also cast doubt on what I said about it being pretty difficult or impossible to reprint an authentic Goudey card today. If you believed it was possible to print a convincing Goudey today, I would think you'd be more reserved about purchasing raw cards.

That was probably me.

Theres an advantage older collectors have that seldom gets mentioned.
I "found" it a few years ago when we were discussing pretty much the same thing, and it was mentioned that experience handling the cards was important.
But I realized that when I was starting, lots of dealers at shows had stacks of low end Goudeys or pretty much any of the more common sets simply out on the table usually rubber banded.
So you could literally pick up and go through a few hundred at any show.

I also realized I hadn't seen that since the mid 80's. Yes there were stacks of cards, but fewer that were just loose. some were in pages, then sleeves, and toploaders, screwdowns, then grading came along.
not many collectors, or for that matter dealers have physically handled a lot of anything prewar outside some sort of holder.


As to it being easy, the level of difficulty would depend on the skill of the person doing it. I was around it and did some of the actual work occasionally for a bit over 2 years. With a bit of practice, and the equipment, yes, I could do a decent job of a Goudey. But I would have to spend maybe 5K on printing equipment, and practice a bit. And while the paper wouldn't be impossible it's not something I can just go pick up at Michaels.
A small print shop would have an easier time, the hard part is the color separations. Most counterfeits of modern cards that were done in the 80's failed because they made halftones of areas like border lines that were never halftones. A skilled small print shop could do it quicker.

I'm positive I've seen a convincing fake of an early 50's card, but being just a regular customer I wasn't in the know about who was shopping it around.

I don't know where it is, but I have one fake Goudey. The cardstock is right or very close, and it passed with a poor ebay scan. In hand though the printing is obviously done on a computer printer.

Bottom line is that while it's not hard for someone who knows how, it's not easy for someone who doesn't.

The only way I can think of to prove that is to setup a small print shop, and make a fake or two.... And that's not happening, I'd much rather spend the 5K i don't have on cards or stamps or bikes or beer, or ...... pretty much anything that wouldn't be likely to get me arrested.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

That was probably me.

Theres an advantage older collectors have that seldom gets mentioned.
I "found" it a few years ago when we were discussing pretty much the same thing, and it was mentioned that experience handling the cards was important.
But I realized that when I was starting, lots of dealers at shows had stacks of low end Goudeys or pretty much any of the more common sets simply out on the table usually rubber banded.
So you could literally pick up and go through a few hundred at any show.

I also realized I hadn't seen that since the mid 80's. Yes there were stacks of cards, but fewer that were just loose. some were in pages, then sleeves, and toploaders, screwdowns, then grading came along.
not many collectors, or for that matter dealers have physically handled a lot of anything prewar outside some sort of holder.


As to it being easy, the level of difficulty would depend on the skill of the person doing it. I was around it and did some of the actual work occasionally for a bit over 2 years. With a bit of practice, and the equipment, yes, I could do a decent job of a Goudey. But I would have to spend maybe 5K on printing equipment, and practice a bit. And while the paper wouldn't be impossible it's not something I can just go pick up at Michaels.
A small print shop would have an easier time, the hard part is the color separations. Most counterfeits of modern cards that were done in the 80's failed because they made halftones of areas like border lines that were never halftones. A skilled small print shop could do it quicker.

I'm positive I've seen a convincing fake of an early 50's card, but being just a regular customer I wasn't in the know about who was shopping it around.

I don't know where it is, but I have one fake Goudey. The cardstock is right or very close, and it passed with a poor ebay scan. In hand though the printing is obviously done on a computer printer.

Bottom line is that while it's not hard for someone who knows how, it's not easy for someone who doesn't.

The only way I can think of to prove that is to setup a small print shop, and make a fake or two.... And that's not happening, I'd much rather spend the 5K i don't have on cards or stamps or bikes or beer, or ...... pretty much anything that wouldn't be likely to get me arrested.

The bold part is what I think most can't comprehend. My favorite response is "if it can be done make me a 1952 Mickey Mantle". LOL, it is always a 52 Mantle.

Nothing against anyone that works in a print shop but it is just another simple job pretty much a anyone with half a brain can do. My great Uncle owned a print shop my whole life that employed between 20-30 people until he sold it around 10 years ago. Score had a plant close so many friends and family worked there the entire time it was open. Two of my best friends have worked in print shops their entire adult life. I know enough about the subject I know what is possible. I never once said there is a big ring of counterfeiters pumping out cards. I have repeatedly said how easily it WOULD be to do.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

LOL, it isn't that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the equipment to do it without others knowing. You saying how impossible this is. Is like saying what ever you do for a job is impossible to do because we don't have the technology to do it.

Also I have posted pics of counterfeit cards in PSA slabs multiple times but nonbelievers like you seem to ignore those posts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, it isn't that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the equipment to do it without others knowing. You saying how impossible this is. Is like saying what ever you do for a job is impossible to do because we don't have the technology to do it.

Also I have posted pics of counterfeit cards in PSA slabs multiple times but nonbelievers like you seem to ignore those posts.

Is there anyone that truly believes PSA never slabbed a fake? They absolutely have. Like that Cracker Jack Mack that was beyond hilarious, and others that are less embarrassing. There are lots of fakes, that is not the argument anyone has been making. No one can produce an example of a very good one.


How about you post the evidence and names you claimed to have in PM, but demanded I give you a list of any crimes myself and everyone I know has ever or I think has ever committed in order to get this evidence from you? . Just post your evidence. If you cannot provide evidence, you are not going to convince anyone reasonable.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Is there anyone that truly believes PSA never slabbed a fake? They absolutely have. Like that Cracker Jack Mack that was beyond hilarious, and others that are less embarrassing. There are lots of fakes, that is not the argument anyone has been making. No one can produce an example of a very good one.


How about you post the evidence and names you claimed to have in PM, but demanded I give you a list of any crimes myself and everyone I know has ever or I think has ever committed in order to get this evidence from you? . Just post your evidence. If you cannot provide evidence, you are not going to convince anyone reasonable.

Posting about PMs on the forum, nice. Not only is that a POS move I believe it is against the few rules we have.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have resolved myself to the fact that I am not capable to detect the better card doctoring alterations. Yes, I stay away from narrow boarders, and anything that looks suspicious to me, but honestly that's about my limit. Congrats to those who have a better eye.

End of the day, I have faith PSA/SGC can do a better job than me at detecting doctoring. So, if I choose to stay in the hobby and make purchases, I have to accept the odds of alterations and forge ahead. So any card of significant value I will buy already graded and scrutinize the card with my own eye and knowledge - that's the best I can do.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Posting about PMs on the forum, nice. Not only is that a POS move I believe it is against the few rules we have.

I do not see any rule that I cannot mention a PM related to a thread, only that I can't post a transcript without approval. The POS move is asking for a folder of incriminating material on everyone I have ever known in exchange for this evidence you allegedly have but refuse to disclose otherwise .

For the 50th time, where is the evidence for your claims of these easy fakes? Just post it instead of bizarre trade proposals or obfuscating and pretending people are arguing that PSA has never slabbed a fake or whatever phony straw man excuse you'll invent next. Just sop bullshitting and post it. It's such an easy way to prove your case.