Would you buy a 1933 Goudey Ruth Raw?

steve B · #1 05-03-2024, 09:55 AM

As far as an outright fake goes, I believe it's possible to make one that will pass the grading companies.

There were few changes in lithography between about 1920 and the late 1980's. The sort of equipment the shop I worked for had is out of date for modern production printing but is readily available. A smallish press can be had for a couple thousand, and the other stuff is also available, camera, plate maker, cutter. Light tables are easy to make.

The stock wouldn't be that hard, I haven't looked for it, but it should be available.
Inks have changed, but the art lithography market has a lot of available inks.

Now, the question of "undetectable" really depends on who is doing the detecting and how seriously they look at things.

The angle of the cut may be different between cutters. I'll have to give it some thought, but older machines had a slightly different path for the blade. So that may be detectable.
Paper that won't react to UV is still made, almost all acid free paper doesn't include brighteners. It has a lot that's wrong, but comic book backing boards are not reactive to UV.
So with some knowledge and some looking, that gets you nearly all the way there.

Would modern stuff like inks and paper stand up to something like and XRF machine? Probably not. Unless you really really did some research to get as close as possible.

Is PSA or any other commercial TPG going to use one? No, not for the forseeable future.

I saw a fake 51 Mantle over 40 years ago. Shopped around to several dealers, very nice looking card. My local shop had it and just handed it to me and asked what I thought.
After looking at it for a few minutes "Very nice looking card, too bad it's fake"
"OK, why is it fake"
"I can't put my finger on why, but it just is."
"That's what we think, and the other 5 dealers who have seen it"

That was probably 81? While I was either still at the printers or had just left for college. Maybe 82.
I think today I could figure out the why. I'm not sure PSA could, and would bet that card eventually ended up in a very high grade slab.

steve B · #2 05-03-2024, 09:57 AM

I voted yes. with the card in hand I'd be confident I could tell a lot about it.

To look at it another way, would you buy an ungraded Goudey common? Other than having Ruth instead of a benchwarmer, and a much bigger price tag, there is really no difference.

packs · #3 05-03-2024, 09:58 AM

Does anyone have an example of a convincing reprint they could show? There are several people who have suggested you could print a convincing 1933 Goudey today. Are there any examples? Seems like something somebody would have found worthwhile.

G1911 · #4 05-03-2024, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Does anyone have an example of a convincing reprint they could show? There are several people who have suggested you could print a convincing 1933 Goudey today. Are there any examples? Seems like something somebody would have found worthwhile.

They�ve declined to show any of these examples so far. Let�s see them guys, very easy way to prove your point.

packs · #5 05-03-2024, 10:04 AM

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

G1911 · #6 05-03-2024, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

That�s because it is not true, it�s just hobby folklore. An old wives tale that has circulated in some form or other for decades. From the �perfect counterfeit��s of T cards supposedly made in the 50�s or 60�s using original equipment or the version in the 70�s and 80�s featuring unnamed dealers and movers faking many of the big finds (though never specified which finds) of vintage material to more modern versions like the Black Swamp fakes story to todays version of how some also anonymous counterfeiters are or readily can make undetectable fakes.

Nobody in any of these alleged counterfeit groups can ever be given a name. No place, nothing one can possibly fact check or validate. No examples can ever be shown. I have been waiting most of my life for somebody to produce some evidence. It has never happened, because it is not true.

We very well may one day have something like this actually happen, but pretty much every hobby has false tales like this of perfect fakes or crimes or very dramatic events that are always vague, have no evidentiary basis or source, and are just imaginary gossip people made up or talked about and over time get to be stated as if the possibilities are actually true. An evidentiary basis is so much less interesting than gossip, and so the gossip just keeps going stated as if it is true. People by and large believe whatever they like to believe, disconnected from what evidence there is to actually support the notion.

packs · #7 05-03-2024, 12:14 PM

One person said they would have no qualms with purchasing raw cards. But they also cast doubt on what I said about it being pretty difficult or impossible to reprint an authentic Goudey card today. If you believed it was possible to print a convincing Goudey today, I would think you'd be more reserved about purchasing raw cards.

steve B · #8 05-06-2024, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

One person said they would have no qualms with purchasing raw cards. But they also cast doubt on what I said about it being pretty difficult or impossible to reprint an authentic Goudey card today. If you believed it was possible to print a convincing Goudey today, I would think you'd be more reserved about purchasing raw cards.

That was probably me.

Theres an advantage older collectors have that seldom gets mentioned.
I "found" it a few years ago when we were discussing pretty much the same thing, and it was mentioned that experience handling the cards was important.
But I realized that when I was starting, lots of dealers at shows had stacks of low end Goudeys or pretty much any of the more common sets simply out on the table usually rubber banded.
So you could literally pick up and go through a few hundred at any show.

I also realized I hadn't seen that since the mid 80's. Yes there were stacks of cards, but fewer that were just loose. some were in pages, then sleeves, and toploaders, screwdowns, then grading came along.
not many collectors, or for that matter dealers have physically handled a lot of anything prewar outside some sort of holder.

As to it being easy, the level of difficulty would depend on the skill of the person doing it. I was around it and did some of the actual work occasionally for a bit over 2 years. With a bit of practice, and the equipment, yes, I could do a decent job of a Goudey. But I would have to spend maybe 5K on printing equipment, and practice a bit. And while the paper wouldn't be impossible it's not something I can just go pick up at Michaels.
A small print shop would have an easier time, the hard part is the color separations. Most counterfeits of modern cards that were done in the 80's failed because they made halftones of areas like border lines that were never halftones. A skilled small print shop could do it quicker.

I'm positive I've seen a convincing fake of an early 50's card, but being just a regular customer I wasn't in the know about who was shopping it around.

I don't know where it is, but I have one fake Goudey. The cardstock is right or very close, and it passed with a poor ebay scan. In hand though the printing is obviously done on a computer printer.

Bottom line is that while it's not hard for someone who knows how, it's not easy for someone who doesn't.

The only way I can think of to prove that is to setup a small print shop, and make a fake or two.... And that's not happening, I'd much rather spend the 5K i don't have on cards or stamps or bikes or beer, or ...... pretty much anything that wouldn't be likely to get me arrested.

bnorth · #9 05-03-2024, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

LOL, it isn't that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the equipment to do it without others knowing. You saying how impossible this is. Is like saying what ever you do for a job is impossible to do because we don't have the technology to do it.

Also I have posted pics of counterfeit cards in PSA slabs multiple times but nonbelievers like you seem to ignore those posts.

G1911 · #10 05-03-2024, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, it isn't that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the equipment to do it without others knowing. You saying how impossible this is. Is like saying what ever you do for a job is impossible to do because we don't have the technology to do it.

Also I have posted pics of counterfeit cards in PSA slabs multiple times but nonbelievers like you seem to ignore those posts.

Is there anyone that truly believes PSA never slabbed a fake? They absolutely have. Like that Cracker Jack Mack that was beyond hilarious, and others that are less embarrassing. There are lots of fakes, that is not the argument anyone has been making. No one can produce an example of a very good one.

How about you post the evidence and names you claimed to have in PM, but demanded I give you a list of any crimes myself and everyone I know has ever or I think has ever committed in order to get this evidence from you?

. Just post your evidence. If you cannot provide evidence, you are not going to convince anyone reasonable.

bnorth · #11 05-03-2024, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Is there anyone that truly believes PSA never slabbed a fake? They absolutely have. Like that Cracker Jack Mack that was beyond hilarious, and others that are less embarrassing. There are lots of fakes, that is not the argument anyone has been making. No one can produce an example of a very good one.

How about you post the evidence and names you claimed to have in PM, but demanded I give you a list of any crimes myself and everyone I know has ever or I think has ever committed in order to get this evidence from you?

. Just post your evidence. If you cannot provide evidence, you are not going to convince anyone reasonable.

Posting about PMs on the forum, nice. Not only is that a POS move I believe it is against the few rules we have.

View Poll Results: Would you buy a 1933 Goudey Ruth Raw?
Yes	134	49.63%
No	87	32.22%
Maybe	49	18.15%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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