Would you buy a 1933 Goudey Ruth Raw?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Assuming their best graders are involved and they're acting in good faith? I think they'd do pretty well but some of the elite card doctors might be able to fool them sometimes. I assume you mean altered, not fake as in counterfeit.

No, the latter, fake as in counterfeit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

No, the latter, fake as in counterfeit.

I have to assume they could spot a fake, unless technology is already that good that they can't, in which case this hobby is doomed.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have to assume they could spot a fake, unless technology is already that good that they can't, in which case this hobby is doomed.

May I ask what technology? Why wouldn't the same exact easily available technology that made them to begin with be used again? Why would there need to be different technology?

[packs]

Probably because that technology no longer exists or would be too cumbersome to reproduce that it's not viable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

May I ask what technology? Why wouldn't the same exact easily available technology that made them to begin with be used again? Why would there need to be different technology?

How would you replicate the stock? Not sure it would be that simple to replicate the cuts either.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How would you replicate the stock? Not sure it would be that simple to replicate the cuts either.

The stock could be the toughest part of a Goudey to try to counterfeit. But I am pretty sure that Goudey's in 1933 and 1934 were printed by silkscreen, assuming you could match the colors the silk screening process is very easily replicated.

[packs]

How would you avoid issues like fluorescence? You'd have to find period materials and use period techniques to produce a period card. I don't think it's really possible to do that or the work it would take to replicate these things would not be viable when you factored in time, cost, and likelihood that it would work.

[G1911]

There are some very good alterations. If presented 500 cards, 100 of which were doctored by someone decent at it, I am positive I would not correctly identify a good number of them.

PSA has commercialized an appeal to authority - they are selling little but their (extremely dubious) authority. If you are going to do that, you need to be able to correctly judge what you are selling your authority on. Even worse, PSA is not just getting tricked by the best of carefully done alterations - they let tons get by that a 2 second glance can quickly tell a viewer is altered.

They generally are able to identify fakes in most issues, with some slip-ups. By and large there are few issues with convincing fakes extant.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How would you replicate the stock? Not sure it would be that simple to replicate the cuts either.

LOL, same with the cuts. Just use the same readily available equipment they used the first time.

The other is also very easy to obtain but I won't post it on an open forum. I believe someone once told me "it is just paper".

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, same with the cuts. Just use the same readily available equipment they used the first time.

The other is also very easy to obtain but I won't post it on an open forum. I believe someone once told me "it is just paper".

I really don't think that would work. It would be 100 year old paper used today. How could you realistically expect the paper to even be useable or to maintain the same characteristics as it did when it was brand new in 1933?

We've all seen people try to forge vintage signatures using vintage ink and vintage paper. It never works because the paper isn't new anymore and it doesn't absorb the ink the same way. It's typically pretty obvious.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

I really don't think that would work. It would be 100 year old paper used today. How could you realistically expect the paper to even be useable or to maintain the same characteristics as it did when it was brand new in 1933?

We've all seen people try to forge vintage signatures using vintage ink and vintage paper. It never works because the paper isn't new anymore and it doesn't absorb the ink the same way. It's typically pretty obvious.

I won't give details but you are extremely uninformed on the subject. They counterfeit extremely high end entire books that are supposed to be hundreds of years old that pass all the expert reviews. PBS had a great special on the subject. I posted a link when it was first aired but it wasn't too popular on here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, same with the cuts. Just use the same readily available equipment they used the first time.

The other is also very easy to obtain but I won't post it on an open forum. I believe someone once told me "it is just paper".

LOL yes I said that with regard to alterations. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's that easy to actually replicate the stock from the vintage issues.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have to assume they could spot a fake, unless technology is already that good that they can't, in which case this hobby is doomed.

It isn't quite there yet, but it absolutely will be someday. And yes, that is when the hobby as we know it ceases to exist.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

It isn't quite there yet, but it absolutely will be someday. And yes, that is when the hobby as we know it ceases to exist.

Yup. This is the time bomb waiting to happen.

[tkd]

Yes, I would buy a raw Goudey Ruth but it would need to be discounted or have amazing eye appeal. There are enough of them around that buyers can be choosers.
If it's an extremely rare card I'm not as picky.

[7nohitter]

From a reputable dealer here, who would back it up?

Absolutely.