Pre War Era Players you don't see in HOF discussions

[Yoda]

Tip O'Neil.

[SteveMitchell]

You convinced me ... now, hopefully, a Veterans Committee of the future will discover these facts. Thanks!

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Definitely worthy of discussion for the Hall of Fame: Bobby Veach, Detroit Tigers

Swiped from online:
As the clean-up hitter on one of the strongest offensive teams of his day, Bobby Veach was one of the truly great RBI men of the late Deadball Era, easily leading the major leagues in runs driven in over the twelve years, 1913 to 1924, that he was a full time player. Veach drove in over 100 runs in a season six times, hit 30 or more doubles eight times and smacked ten or more triples ten years in a row. In all, Veach played for 14 major league seasons and hit .300 or better ten times, finishing with a lifetime .310 batting average.

Veach was also among the best defensive outfielders of his era, regularly ranking among the league leaders in putouts, range factor, and fielding percentage. Despite being one of the most productive hitters in baseball during his years in Detroit, Veach played in the shadows of three Detroit outfielders who won 16 batting titles and were inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame: Cobb in center field and Sam Crawford followed by Harry Heilmann in right field. Detroit's 1915 outfield consisting of Veach, Cobb, and Crawford has been ranked by baseball historian and statistician Bill James as the greatest outfield in history.

In the eight years from 1915 to 1922, Veach had 852 RBIs and 450 extra base hits, more than any other player. The top five in RBI during these eight years:
1 Bobby Veach – 852
2 Ty Cobb – 723
3 Babe Ruth – 635
4 George Sisler – 612
5 Tris Speaker – 585

The top five in extra base hits:
1 Bobby Veach – 450
2 Ruth – 445
3 Speaker – 444
4 Cobb – 418
5 Sisler – 402

[Scocs]

Another vote for Dick Lundy and Oliver Marcelle!

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Probably a better player than Billy Herman, who is in.

That also goes for Rick and Wes Ferrell.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

That also goes for Rick and Wes Ferrell.

Some people think the voters for Rick got him confused with his brother Wes. I think Wes probably belongs in the HOF, and Rick does not.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I would agree Wes has a better case. Hell he was a better hitter than Rick and he was a pitcher!

While Veach was a fine player, I have a problem using RBI as a criterion. When the guys in front of you are on base over 40% of the time of COURSE you are going to have a ton of RBI. For me the rest of the numbers are a little short.

[z28jd]

Rick Ferrell got in partially with the help of his brother, who talked him up for a book, saying he deserved to be in Cooperstown. He was also the AL leader in games caught, which was starting to creep into the news as Bob Boone approached the all-time record and Carlton Fisk approached his record. Eppa Rixey got HOF support when Warren Spahn started approaching his NL record for wins by a lefty, so sometimes it just paid to be in the news.

That 4.04 career ERA for Wes is what has likely kept him out. People made a huge deal about Jack Morris having a 3.90 ERA and getting in, so imagine what a 4.04 would look like to voters before Morris.

[MuncieNolePAZ]

Originally Posted by Scocs

Another vote for Dick Lundy and Oliver Marcelle!

Agreed. Also Dick Redding.

Chad

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Rick Ferrell got in partially with the help of his brother, who talked him up for a book, saying he deserved to be in Cooperstown. He was also the AL leader in games caught, which was starting to creep into the news as Bob Boone approached the all-time record and Carlton Fisk approached his record. Eppa Rixey got HOF support when Warren Spahn started approaching his NL record for wins by a lefty, so sometimes it just paid to be in the news.

That 4.04 career ERA for Wes is what has likely kept him out. People made a huge deal about Jack Morris having a 3.90 ERA and getting in, so imagine what a 4.04 would look like to voters before Morris.

All very good points. Wes' ERA was high, especially after he was 29 years old, and his career was over a few years later.

But from age 21 through 28 he was one of the best players in the League.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

All very good points. Wes' ERA was high, especially after he was 29 years old, and his career was over a few years later.

But from age 21 through 28 he was one of the best players in the League.

Ferrell's ERA+ for his career is 116 which puts Morris to shame. It was an offensively insane era for most of his career.

[packs]

Wes Ferrell was also one of the best hitting pitchers of all time. Not quite Ohtani but have a look at his incredible 1935 season. He led the league in wins with 25 and hit 347 with 7 homers 32 RBIs and an OPS+ of 141.

[Brian Van Horn]

Pete Browning.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by z28jd

That 4.04 career ERA for Wes is what has likely kept him out. People made a huge deal about Jack Morris having a 3.90 ERA and getting in, so imagine what a 4.04 would look like to voters before Morris.

Besides his high ERA (but solid ERA+) and failure to reach 200 wins, Wes Ferrell’s temper doesn’t help his case. On multiple occasions, he refused to hand over the ball after his coach came to yank him from the game for pitching poorly. One one such occasion in 1934 when Red Sox manager Bucky Harris came out to relieve him, not only did he refuse to hand over the ball, but when he was finally persuaded to return to the dugout he punched himself in the jaw with his fist and slammed his head against a concrete wall. He had to be forcibly restrained to prevent him from doing further harm to himself. During the 1936 season, Ferrell walked off the field in disgust and refused to continue pitching twice in the span of five days, angered each time by his teammates’ defensive shortcomings. On the second occasion he was fined $1,000 and suspended for several days. Ferrell’s reaction was to threaten to punch the manager, Joe Cronin. (SABR)

But I hope that the attention Ferrell has gotten in the wake of Shohei Ohtani for being one of the best two way players ever will tip the scales in his favor and he’ll eventually get in. His career ERA+ of 116 is better than some other pitchers in the HOF discussion such as Luis Tiant (114) and Hershiser
(112) and as pointed out, is higher thsn a lot of guys already in the HOF.

[esd10]

I'm going to throw another name cy seymour

[jingram058]

Lately I have decided I don't really care anymore about who's in, who's not and who should be in. I collect, talk about and display cards for guys like Cecil Travis, Riggs Stephenson and Maury Wills as if they are in. Anymore that's all that matters to me.

I recently nominated a coworker for a personal award, Florida Section American Waterworks Association Operator of the Year. This fellow is like a one man water plant. He trained 5 newly-hired operator trainees. Oversaw their hiring. Completed his master's degree. Received the title of Certified Public Manager. Runs the health and physical fitness programs for the entire utility. What more could he do? He didn't get selected.

It all comes down to subjectivity, opinion and politics. So anymore, who cares? It's meaningless. We treat our man as if he won. He knows how we feel about him. I collect the same way.

[skelly423]

He straddles era, but I’m going to throw Dom DiMaggio into the ring. He was probably the best defensive centerfielder of his day (and I include older brother Joe in that assessment). Like so many he was on track for the important counting stats before WWII service interrupted his career. The career totals appear lacking because of it, but I won’t punish a player for serving his country, and think that had he maintained his prewar production over the war years, he’d be in the hall already.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by skelly423

He straddles era, but I’m going to throw Dom DiMaggio into the ring. He was probably the best defensive centerfielder of his day (and I include older brother Joe in that assessment). Like so many he was on track for the important counting stats before WWII service interrupted his career. The career totals appear lacking because of it, but I won’t punish a player for serving his country, and think that had he maintained his prewar production over the war years, he’d be in the hall already.

I think the difficulty when it comes to so many of these players is playing the "What If" game, when it comes to the War. Especially when it comes to the borderline guys, like Dom. He was an incredible center fielder, I think the unfortunate part of the equation is that while he was very good, in the non war years, he wasn't good enough. I'm surprised he didn't get in on the veterans committee though, back in the day.

[cgjackson222]

Pre-War players that I think are talked about a lot:
1) Bill Dahlen
2) Jim McCormick
3) Jack Glasscock


Pre-War players that I think are not talked about enough (not in any particular order):
1) Harry Stovey
2) Wes Ferrell
3) Urban Shocker
4) Pete Browning
5) Babe Herman
6) Babe Adams
7) Josh Beckwith (Negro Leagues)
8) Bob Caruthers
9) Sherry Magee
10) Tony Mullane
11) Tommy Bond
12) Charlie Buffington
13 Jack Quinn
14 Bob Johnson
15) Stan Hack
16) Bucky Walters
17) Wilbur Cooper
18) Carl Mays
19) Tommy Bridges
20) Larry Doyle
21) Bobby Veach
22) Gavvy Cravath
23) Jimmy Sheckard
24) George Gore
25) William Bell (Negro Leagues)

and many honorably mentions....

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I think a few of the players on your list get enough mention around this forum, anyhow. Stovey is among the most mentioned in my opinion.

Either way, I sure hope a lot of those guys get in! I've been saving many of their autographs for years.

[molenick]

I think Charles's list points out the problem. There are a lot of very good players who were better (at least statistically) than a specific player that is in the Hall.

Wilbur Cooper and Rube Marquard pitched at roughly the same time but Cooper (216-178, 2.89 ERA, 116 ERA+, 93rd ranked starter on Baseball Reference) was by any measure better than Marquard (201-177, 3.08 ERA, 103 ERA+, 252nd ranked starter).

The problem is, Marquard is an easy target because there are literally hundreds of non-HOFers better than Marquard and they're not all getting in. But Marquard pitched in NY, was the “$11,000 lemon", then won 19 games in a row and became a star on pennant-winning teams while Wilbur Cooper was less well-known. And I don't think the VC was doing advanced statistically analysis in 1971 when Marquard got in...it seemed to depend on who was on the committee and if there was some reason a player was still remembered.

So I am all for bringing these players to light and I will even add one I don't think is usually mentioned: Cupid Childs. But in all likelihood very few (if any) of these players will be getting in.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by molenick

I think Charles's list points out the problem. There are a lot of very good players who were better (at least statistically) than a specific player that is in the Hall.

Wilbur Cooper and Rube Marquard pitched at roughly the same time but Cooper (216-178, 2.89 ERA, 116 ERA+, 93rd ranked starter on Baseball Reference) was by any measure better than Marquard (201-177, 3.08 ERA, 103 ERA+, 252nd ranked starter).

The problem is, Marquard is an easy target because there are literally hundreds of non-HOFers better than Marquard and they're not all getting in. But Marquard pitched in NY, was the “$11,000 lemon", then won 19 games in a row and became a star on pennant-winning teams while Wilbur Cooper was less well-known. And I don't think the VC was doing advanced statistically analysis in 1971 when Marquard got in...it seemed to depend on who was on the committee and if there was some reason a player was still remembered.

So I am all for bringing these players to light and I will even add one I don't think is usually mentioned: Cupid Childs. But in all likelihood very few (if any) of these players will be getting in.

I think the majority of the people on my list probably do not belong in the HOF. I just think they should be in the discussion.

[molenick]

I agree with that as well. The Hall is already watered down enough. I am more of the argument now that the best player not in at his position (e.g., Dahlen) should be in rather than looking for players better than the bad choices (Baines, Haines, etc.).

[packs]

Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz. He collected more than 1200 hits with a career average of 276 and also won 147 games on the mound, including 41 games and an ERA title in 1886.

[GeoPoto]

"Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz."

If we are letting in early Ohtani/Ruth competitors for "all-around" honors:

John "Needles" Bentley. Pitcher with the Washington Senators in 1913-1916. 46 wins and 8 saves in 9 MLB seasons. His most productive season was 1924 with the New York Giants as he posted a 16-5 record with a 3.78 ERA in 188 innings pitched. Was a good hitter with a career OBP of .316 in 616 plate appearances. Gave up World Series winning-ground ball single to McNeely in the 1924 "pebble" game.

In his first two seasons with the Baltimore Orioles of the International League, 1917 and 1919 (he was in the US Army in 1918), with the exception of a lone pitching appearance in his first year, Bentley played exclusively at first base and in the outfield: In 185 games, he posted averages of .333 batting and .510 slugging. Then he really caught fire. From 1920 to 1922, Bentley’s numbers were staggering, as he batted .378 in 439 games, scored 340 runs, drove in 399, and had a slugging average of an astounding .590. In both 1920 (161) and 1921 (120), Bentley led the league in RBIs; in 1921, he won the league Triple Crown, batting .412 (the league’s highest season average in the 20th century), with 24 home runs and 120 RBIs. His 246 hits that season remain the league’s single-season record.

Yet Bentley continued to pitch when needed, and those results, too, were staggering. From 1920 through 1922, Bentley pitched in 56 games and produced a 41-6 record, a winning percentage of .872: in both 1921 (.923) and 1922 (.867), he led the league in that category. In 1920 (2.10) and 1922 (1.73), Bentley also led the league in ERA, and over three seasons his ERA was an astounding 2.07. During those years, by virtue of his performance both at the plate and on the mound, the press bestowed on Bentley the moniker "Babe Ruth of the Minors".

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

"Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz."

If we are letting in early Ohtani/Ruth competitors for "all-around" honors:

John "Needles" Bentley.

He won 46 games with a below average ERA. He played a total of 62 games in a non-[itcher role and posted an OPS+ also below the league average. Career value: 5.9 WAR.

He is not a candidate whatsoever.

[packs]

I mentioned Dave Foutz because he had a full major league career as a two way player. I don’t think I’m just throwing anyone’s name around who hit and pitched.

[GeoPoto]

"He is not a candidate whatsoever."

Good point. I was going for "interesting post" more than "winning hand". Assuming you read my post and not just the name of the candidate, I conclude that I missed the mark. I'll try not to make the same mistake again.

And Packs, I apologize for getting you involved. I didn't mean to imply that you were throwing names around, just because I was.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

"He is not a candidate whatsoever."

Good point. I was going for "interesting post" more than "winning hand". Assuming you read my post and not just the name of the candidate, I conclude that I missed the mark. I'll try not to make the same mistake again.

And Packs, I apologize for getting you involved. I didn't mean to imply that you were throwing names around, just because I was.

Yes, I read the post, thanks for checking. I even quoted the part of the post where you seem to propose him as a candidate. You quoted Packs Foutz post, a legitimate candidate, and replied

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

If we are letting in early Ohtani/Ruth competitors for "all-around" honors:

If we are not talking about letting Bentley into the Hall of Fame, what are you talking about letting him into?

The rest of your post is just copied and pasted text from his SABR bio without an attribution.

[Leon]

+1. The HOF has become the Hall of Mediocre.....don't look at who's in already but who deserves to be in because of their abilities.

Originally Posted by molenick

I agree with that as well. The Hall is already watered down enough. I am more of the argument now that the best player not in at his position (e.g., Dahlen) should be in rather than looking for players better than the bad choices (Baines, Haines, etc.).

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Was just thinking about Caruthers.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Pre-War players that I think are talked about a lot:
1) Bill Dahlen
2) Jim McCormick
3) Jack Glasscock


Pre-War players that I think are not talked about enough (not in any particular order):
1) Harry Stovey
2) Wes Ferrell
3) Urban Shocker
4) Pete Browning
5) Babe Herman
6) Babe Adams
7) Josh Beckwith (Negro Leagues)
8) Bob Caruthers
9) Sherry Magee
10) Tony Mullane
11) Tommy Bond
12) Charlie Buffington
13 Jack Quinn
14 Bob Johnson
15) Stan Hack
16) Bucky Walters
17) Wilbur Cooper
18) Carl Mays
19) Tommy Bridges
20) Larry Doyle
21) Bobby Veach
22) Gavvy Cravath
23) Jimmy Sheckard
24) George Gore
25) William Bell (Negro Leagues)

and many honorably mentions....