Can Southern Leaguers have a Piedmont 150 back

[Cory]

I don't think so - but I see one listed for sale on Facebook.

Explanations -
I could be wrong and it's possible (but I don't recall ever seeing one).
Wrong back pictured (I messaged the seller to see if this was the case) most likely?
Fake
Rare/scrap/misprint?
Rebacked? but why?

I can tell a fake in hand, but not confident in my ability via picture alone. Any thoughts?

[StraightRaceCards]

I don't believe so.

I believe it's just Old Mill, Hindu, and Piedmont 350

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=121011

[The Nasty Nati]

Sad to no longer hear Ted Z chime in on this. He was THE T206 sage.

[brianp-beme]

All T206 Piedmont Southern League cards will have the Piedmont 350 back, so any of your possible explanations is indeed a possibility, except for you being wrong about never seeing one.

Brian

[steve B]

It's probably not, either a wrong scan or rebacked or something.

But, never say never.
One of the 150 only cards has a single known example with a P350 back.
I have a thought that Piedmont needed so many cards that occasionally a handful of sheets intended for other series were used up to fill minor shortfalls in a Piedmont shipment.

More common, are cards that appear to be rebacked with a paper layer of a different brand. Possibly also as a fill in or using up finished sheets that ended up as overstock.

[Cory]

It was cheap enough to arouse my curiosity. I'll blacklight it and put it under a loupe when i get it. Then post it here. Seller confirmed it was a 150 back. If nothing else I'll have a fake to learn from.

[T206Collector]

Nope. If a Southern Leaguer has a Piedmont back then it will be 350 Series. Southern Leaguers were printed in "Group 6" as described here:

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Group%206.html

The first printing and distribution of the southern league group was with Hindu brand cigarettes beginning in August 1909. Though advertisements indicate that all 48 subjects were to be produced at this time, only 34 were printed due to a short production run and printing limitations. Per the Hindu advertisements, these southern league subjects were packaged and distributed separately from the major-league subjects of the 150 Series.

After the Hindu campaign, the 150 Series concluded and the 350 Series began. During the first printings of the 350 Series, the complete southern league group of 48 subjects were printed with Old Mill and Piedmont brand backs. The Old Mill (Southern Leagues) back advertisement was designed and printed specifically for use with this group and was applied only to sheets with these subjects. This is evidence that the 48 southern league subjects were printed on sheets composed of only southern league subjects. These preprinted front sheets had either the Old Mill (SL) or Piedmont 350 backs applied. After these early 350 Series printings, the southern league print group was discontinued.

[Leon]

+1

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Sad to no longer hear Ted Z chime in on this. He was THE T206 sage.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Sad to no longer hear Ted Z chime in on this. He was THE T206 sage.

It makes my heart hurt not having Ted a call away anymore. We lost more knowledge in his head than he ever could have published for us.

[Cory]

Finally arrived - got lost in mail for 3 weeks. Scans attached. If it's a fake I can't detect it -

Doesn't "glow" under a blacklight
Smells old and musty like other t206
Printing looks fine under a loupe
Texture is correct.
Not visually rebacked. I admit I'm not familiar with rebacked cards - so not sure what to look for, but I don't see it and I can't "peel" it apart.

Any idea what I should do next?

[Pat R]

Really interesting card Cory. Everything looks good to me if it isn't rebacked.

[G1911]

Authentic front and authentic back, for sure. I don't see an indication in the scan of rebacking. Now this is interesting

[brianp-beme]

If re-backed, the re-backer did a great job seamlessly blending the two sides.
If it has not been re-backed, you have a (currently) one of a kind rulebreaker, which would draw a lot of interest from the rabid T206 crowd (and perhaps a fair amount of money) if put up for auction.

To reiterate what Steve B. mentioned in a previous post, I should have never said never. Perhaps this does exist.

Anyone know where/with whom is the best for Cory to consult to determine if this card has not been re-backed?

Brian

[brianp-beme]

I thought it would be helpful to save the two scans and share them closer together for easier viewing. That penciled in 'WR' on the back looks familiar...I think I might have a card or two with it as well.

Brian

[Cory]

For fixing the scans. I still have no idea what I'm doing there and consider it a win just getting them uploaded.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

[brianp-beme]

No problem. One thing that just came to mind is that the blue ink(?) stain on back seems pretty strong. Many times a strong stain like that will bleed through to the other side. I do not see evidence of that.

Just something to consider.

Brian

[53toppscollector]

the ink not fading through to the front would be the biggest tell for me that it is re-backed, beyond just the fact that we've never seen a SLer, to my knowledge, with anything other than a P350/OMSL/Hindu back.

The only other explanation I could think of is that this was a scrap, that they had the fronts for the SLers designed at the time the 150 series was being printed, and this was printed as a one-off test of some kind and discarded. But if that is the case, I feel like we'd have seen a few other random examples pop up over time.

If this is a re-back, its also kind of an odd choice. You understand why people would try to fake a HOF like Matty or Cobb with a front/back combo that doesnt exist, but a random SLer with a P150 back is a few notches below that.

[brianp-beme]

Here is a T206 Ball Piedmont 150 that I have with very similiar looking initials and placement of those initials.

Brian

[G1911]

If rebacked it is a decent rebacking.

That one is not previously known is not evidence it is rebacked. Previously unknown T cards still arise pretty much every year - I've found a few that surprised me. It is not out of the realm of plausibility that a sheet or two early on in pre-release production may have used the earlier backing. With a T card survival rate that appears to be below 1% it wouldn't be odd to have a single card found of such a sheet.

No opinion on either option as this one is good enough to pass in a scan if it is rebacked, but both are fully plausible.

[Lobo Aullando]

One way of verifying that it hasn't been Frankensteined is by checking out the edges, and that would appear to be very difficult to carry out.

[robw1959]

It was probably rebacked and then chewed up around the edges to conceal the evidence.

[Cory]

I am no expert on rebacking but I can't see any evidence of it.

[Cory]

So I did a little digging on the forum about rebacking and how to potentially identify it - that I hadn't thought of -

Weigh the card. I have a small scale for coins that should do the trick. I will weigh it vs. some controls when I get home.

Calipers - I ordered a set on Amazon and will put calipers to the card vs. controls when it arrives tomorrow.

Blacklight- I did hit it with the blacklight and didn't see any glowing - but I didn't focus on the edges - so I will hit it again - presumably glue residue may show up under blacklight?

I also have a digital microscope that I haven't put the card under to see if I can see any other signs of rebacking.

Anybody else have any other ideas? Soaking? I've never soaked a card as the thought of putting cardboard in water just sounds like trouble - I know that soaking is a widely used and an accepted way to remove scrapbook backing. Could make the card separate if it was rebacked? Fine otherwise?

All that being said - let's assume the card is genuine. What do I do with it? Have it graded? I've never sent a card off for grading, but I do have a handful that I should. I prefer SGC slabs, but would there be any reason that would argue for PSA? Given its uniqueness does it need special instructions? Hand it off to an auction house to take care of it? I realize something like this is worth whatever someone will pay for it, but does anybody have thoughts on what it would be worth if genuine and unaltered? Anybody know what could be used as a comp?

[iwantitiwinit]

If you could successfully get that graded I would think it could be worth quite a bit. Being a one of a kind, $10,000+?

[steve B]

The edges will tell a lot.
It does seem an odd candidate for rebacking.
A sort of common but not southern leaguer with a common back it supposedly never came with. I can maybe see changing a piedmont 350 to an old mill or either to Hindu.

The edge wear is a bit concerning, as it might hide a very slight seam.

The stain not showing through doesn't concern me. The stock for many T206s was coated, and stains shouldn't show through the coating.
(a big field of study that hasn't been looked at really at all is how often the coated stock was used.

If it isn't rebacked, I would think of it as a sort of scrap. The opposite of the 150 only card with a 350 back. Which I think is probably leftover fronts being used up to fill a Piedmont order.
Here there may have been Piedmont 150 backs leftover that were printed with whatever front was current to use them up.
Or
P150 backs used as setup sheets for a front run, and accidentally mixed with the production sheets sent to cutting. (Or not if it's truly hand cut scrap)

[brianp-beme]

Hi Steve, so would this card with a heavy stain on both sides be an example of a T206 with uncoated stock, or staining so heavy that it was able to affect the other side of a T206 with coated stock?

Brian

[G1911]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Hi Steve, so would this card with a heavy stain on both sides be an example of a T206 with uncoated stock, or staining so heavy that it was able to affect the other side of a T206 with coated stock?

Brian

It looks to me like this one was involved in a spill that hit both sides.

Stains sometimes go through the other side and sometimes don't on T cards.

[Cory]

So I weighed the card vs another dozen or so. It is markedly heavier. .032 ounces vs rest clustered around .025 ounces. I had some analog calipers with 1mm increments. It is around 1mm vs approximately 0.5 mm for a comparison.

Still no visible line on borders and nothing shows up under blacklight, but as someone else proposed the edges are "fuzzed" all the way around which conceals whatever is going on. On closer inspection I did notice some wrinkling on the face like when you glue or paste paper and it slides a bit.

So I would say the skeptics were right and it is rebacked. Still a weird choice in my opinion but maybe it was just practice before moving to higher value cards/backs.

I really appreciate everyones thoughts on this. What should I do with the card? Destroy it? Write reback on the back ?

I don't regret buying it as I learned a lot and it was kind of exciting to think I had discovered something new.

I had planned on consigning to REA, but I don't think thats necessary now.

[JollyElm]

I'll throw this out there. If you are pretty certain it is re-backed, and wouldn't be risking damaging something valuable, then now is the time to go the full nine yards and try to separate the supposed layers, right? Why not arrive at a definitive answer?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Hi Steve, so would this card with a heavy stain on both sides be an example of a T206 with uncoated stock, or staining so heavy that it was able to affect the other side of a T206 with coated stock?

Brian

Hard to tell coated from uncoated from a scan, but I'd go with uncoated and a spill that hit the front and both partly soaked through and likely was bad enough to puddle on the table and soak in from the back.

The front has a more well defined stain, while the back is less clear and more "blurry" at the edges.

The uncoated stock is more like finished cardstock, where one surface is smooth and a bit pressed from a roller in the paper making machine. It has no real coating, but absorbs most things better on the reverse side. It's good for printing on, since that finished side makes the ink stay on the surface making for brighter colors and crisper images.

If you look at a coated stock T206 under high magnification you can see the cracks in the coating.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Cory

So I weighed the card vs another dozen or so. It is markedly heavier. .032 ounces vs rest clustered around .025 ounces. I had some analog calipers with 1mm increments. It is around 1mm vs approximately 0.5 mm for a comparison.

Still no visible line on borders and nothing shows up under blacklight, but as someone else proposed the edges are "fuzzed" all the way around which conceals whatever is going on. On closer inspection I did notice some wrinkling on the face like when you glue or paste paper and it slides a bit.

So I would say the skeptics were right and it is rebacked. Still a weird choice in my opinion but maybe it was just practice before moving to higher value cards/backs.

I really appreciate everyones thoughts on this. What should I do with the card? Destroy it? Write reback on the back ?

I don't regret buying it as I learned a lot and it was kind of exciting to think I had discovered something new.

I had planned on consigning to REA, but I don't think thats necessary now.

Having measured but not weighed a lot of mine, that would be a clear indication of a rebacking. The ones I have were remarkably consistent in thickness.

Double thickness would seem to indicate two cards glued together. I would try soaking it. At worst you end up with a SLer with a damaged back, and a common with a damaged front. But the card is already in rough shape.

They take soaking well, and if a water soluble glue was used, should come apart easily. It will take time, probably a few hours. But you could put it in a bowl, watch a game or two and check on it.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by steve B

Hard to tell coated from uncoated from a scan, but I'd go with uncoated and a spill that hit the front and both partly soaked through and likely was bad enough to puddle on the table and soak in from the back.

The front has a more well defined stain, while the back is less clear and more "blurry" at the edges.

The uncoated stock is more like finished cardstock, where one surface is smooth and a bit pressed from a roller in the paper making machine. It has no real coating, but absorbs most things better on the reverse side. It's good for printing on, since that finished side makes the ink stay on the surface making for brighter colors and crisper images.

If you look at a coated stock T206 under high magnification you can see the cracks in the coating.

Thanks Steve. Another side question. The T206 Manning I shared is a Piedmont 350. I have heard (and noticed) that for the Piedmont cards in the 150/350 print group, the cards with the 150 backs are typically bolder and more colorful than their 350 counterparts.

Are the 150 cards typically uncoated, which is why they usually look bolder and more colorful? And which surface that you refer to is smooth and roller pressed on uncoated stock...the front or the back?

Brian

[The Nasty Nati]

Did the original seller of this card ask for a lot of $? If so, I think that's a clear indicator they knew of the significance of this SL with Piedmont 350 back, hence why they may have rebacked it.

But if it sold for cheap, then it just seems strange to me why they would go through all the trouble to reback it.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Did the original seller of this card ask for a lot of $? If so, I think that's a clear indicator they knew of the significance of this SL with Piedmont 350 back, hence why they may have rebacked it.

But if it sold for cheap, then it just seems strange to me why they would go through all the trouble to reback it.

No - I bought it for less than $100 ($60 or $70 I think). Near certain the seller I bought it from had no idea. It is definitely weird that someone went to the trouble to reback this card. My best guess is that it was just practice for higher value stuff - only issue with that is you could find cheaper fodder than southern leaguers. I'll try soaking the card to see what happens - if it splits. Maybe I get lucky and get 2 rough cards out of it.

Maybe the rebacker did this odd combination just to see if it was detected - with a 350 back I wouldn't have given it another look.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks Steve. Another side question. The T206 Manning I shared is a Piedmont 350. I have heard (and noticed) that for the Piedmont cards in the 150/350 print group, the cards with the 150 backs are typically bolder and more colorful than their 350 counterparts.

Are the 150 cards typically uncoated, which is why they usually look bolder and more colorful? And which surface that you refer to is smooth and roller pressed on uncoated stock...the front or the back?

Brian

I haven't looked at them for that beyond noticing different stocks. My collection of them is mostly lower grade, so the coating may not be apparent on some.
One of those things I need to go through and check.

It is possible that some series are more often on coated stock.

[Jersey City Giants]

Originally Posted by Cory

No - I bought it for less than $100 ($60 or $70 I think). Near certain the seller I bought it from had no idea. It is definitely weird that someone went to the trouble to reback this card. My best guess is that it was just practice for higher value stuff - only issue with that is you could find cheaper fodder than southern leaguers. I'll try soaking the card to see what happens - if it splits. Maybe I get lucky and get 2 rough cards out of it.

Maybe the rebacker did this odd combination just to see if it was detected - with a 350 back I wouldn't have given it another look.

Wow, then why reback the card? That is a ton of work to make zero additional dollars for a southern leaguer.

[steve B]

Part of me is sort of hoping for a Piedmont blank front....

Another impossiblity.

[Cory]

Do any blank fronts exist? I haven't had a chance to soak it yet to see what happens. I'll try to do so this evening.

Originally Posted by steve B

Part of me is sort of hoping for a Piedmont blank front....

Another impossiblity.

[Cory]

Soaked the card for about an hour. Nothing. Still can't see a seam. It doesn't want to separate. Not sure how to proceed.

[Lobo Aullando]

Might as well put it in a Card Saver and file it away to show to your friends and have a story.

I did learn that the typical weight of a card is approximately 0.025 ounces.

Originally Posted by Cory

Soaked the card for about an hour. Nothing. Still can't see a seam. It doesn't want to separate. Not sure how to proceed.

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by Cory

Soaked the card for about an hour. Nothing. Still can't see a seam. It doesn't want to separate. Not sure how to proceed.

A hour may not be enough. Are you using distilled water? Also yes there are blank banks that are considered printer scrap.

James G

[G1911]

I have never seen a legitimate blank front that was not a skinned card.

[JamesGallo]

There are plenty if you search auctions

Also although this did not get much attention there are a couple in this thread.


https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=345655

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

There are plenty if you search auctions

Also although this did not get much attention there are a couple in this thread.


https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=345655

"Front"

[brianp-beme]

Here is my favorite blank front card. Skinned, yes, but still tough to come by.

Brian

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by G1911

"Front"

Whoops your correct i misread it too quickly.

That being said i do feel like i have seen something in the past, but it would certainly be printers scrap on a T card at least.

James G

[The Nasty Nati]

The next step is to get it graded. See what the "professionals" think.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

The next step is to get it graded. See what the "professionals" think.

I think thats what I am going to do. I will soak it overnight and see if it splits but I cannot for the life of me tell that is 2 cards pieced together.

[JollyElm]

MRI or CAT scan??
Complain of a thigh injury and secrete the card in your pocket when they send you down the hall to imaging. Easy peazy.

[Cory]

Came back graded A. Can't get SGC scans to uplaod. I'll send pics when I get it. Thoughts? Would they slab it if they thought it was rebacked?