Collectors (PSA) Acquired SGC

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

particularly after the star witness went south.

Who are you referring to when you say the "star witness went south"? And by "went south" do you mean they just told the FBI to pound sand and refused to cooperate, or did a key witness die from covid or something, greatly complicating the case?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Who are you referring to when you say the "star witness went south"? And by "went south" do you mean they just told the FBI to pound sand and refused to cooperate, or did a key witness die from covid or something, greatly complicating the case?

Travis, as I understand it, Brent through his former counsel originally was cooperating with the feds (something clearly guilty parties frequently do in the hope of getting a lighter sentence at the end of the day, meaning they will furnish evidence and eventually testify against other defendants should a trial ensue); but subsequently switched counsel and apparently decided no longer to cooperate. This was all discussed on Blowout and to an extent here as well if I recall.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis, as I understand it, Brent through his former counsel originally was cooperating with the feds (something clearly guilty parties frequently do in the hope of getting a lighter sentence at the end of the day, meaning they will furnish evidence and eventually testify against other defendants should a trial ensue); but subsequently switched counsel and apparently decided no longer to cooperate. This was all discussed on Blowout and to an extent here as well if I recall.

And it was shortly after Brent stopped cooperating that eBay removed PWCC for shill bidding. That was interesting timing.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis, as I understand it, Brent through his former counsel originally was cooperating with the feds (something clearly guilty parties frequently do in the hope of getting a lighter sentence at the end of the day, meaning they will furnish evidence and eventually testify against other defendants should a trial ensue); but subsequently switched counsel and apparently decided no longer to cooperate. This was all discussed on Blowout and to an extent here as well if I recall.

Ah, OK. That was my guess, but wasn't sure. Lichtman spoke a little bit about his time defending Brent/PWCC on the Hobby News Daily podcast yesterday. The full interview was pretty good/interesting, so it's worth a listen if you're into that sort of thing. Here's a link to it. The PWCC conversation starts at 11:44 into it.

https://youtu.be/RqE-UT8ShH0?si=sV-kEZQ1363drv9c&t=704

Here's a transcript of what he says during this segment:

Originally Posted by Jeffery Lichtman

"I was a harsh critic of Brent & PWCC when I believed they were committing fraud. Then they became targeted by the FBI, and at that point, I felt that in order for them to get a more favorable disposition of their situation, I felt that they should take in all the cards that were altered in some way or another and give refunds, which they did. And I think that went a long way toward helping their situation. They accepted responsibility, they made people whole (not everybody, that's for sure), I suppose - and not everybody wanted to be made whole because a lot of people had trimmed cards in PSA holders, in high grades, and they figured why should I get back the price that I paid for this thing when it's gone up in value since then? This is the hobby. Everybody's against fraud except when it can make you money. This is an interesting mess of people in the hobby. You know, bless their hearts because I suppose I'm one of them."

[Snowman]

It would be interesting to hear Brent's take on what happened and why he decided to switch counsel.

My guess is he was likely convinced that he hadn't actually done anything wrong but that Lichtman believed he had and that he was just doing what he was advised to do because he feared he was going to be in trouble if he didn't follow Lichtman's advice. Then after discussing his situation with someone else, a different attorney, perhaps one that doesn't collect cards, he believed he was getting some bad/biased advice and decided to cut ties with Lichtman.

That or I'm dead wrong and just completely speculating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It would be interesting to hear Brent's take on what happened and why he decided to switch counsel.

My guess is he was likely convinced that he hadn't actually done anything wrong but that Lichtman believed he had and that he was just doing what he was advised to do because he feared he was going to be in trouble if he didn't follow Lichtman's advice. Then after discussing his situation with someone else, a different attorney, perhaps one that doesn't collect cards, he believed he was getting some bad/biased advice and decided to cut ties with Lichtman.

That or I'm dead wrong and just completely speculating.

I am only speculating as well, and I would not frame it in quite the same terms, but I do believe he made the decision to change direction probably based on what another lawyer or lawyers said to him. I don't believe for a minute Brent actually thought he hadn't done anything wrong. His degree of fear, risk tolerance, whatever, likely changed from the early days of the scandal and FBI involvement.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am only speculating as well, and I would not frame it in quite the same terms, but I do believe he made the decision to change direction probably based on what another lawyer or lawyers said to him. I don't believe for a minute Brent actually thought he hadn't done anything wrong. His degree of fear, risk tolerance, whatever, likely changed from the early days of the scandal and FBI involvement.

Ya, hard to know what his mindset is. I do remember watching a video from a few years back though where he was being interviewed and asked about all the doctored cards selling through PWCC. He seemed to respond as though he thought there was nothing wrong with improving cards and that he thought as long as it passed grading, then it didn't matter. I suspect if he believed it was wrong, deep down, that his answers would have been different. Perhaps more dodgy or just outright denying any allegations. I also remember listening to the interview and finding myself in agreement with much of what he said (though not everything, of course).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Ya, hard to know what his mindset is. I do remember watching a video from a few years back though where he was being interviewed and asked about all the doctored cards selling through PWCC. He seemed to respond as though he thought there was nothing wrong with improving cards and that he thought as long as it passed grading, then it didn't matter. I suspect if he believed it was wrong, deep down, that his answers would have been different. Perhaps more dodgy or just outright denying any allegations. I also remember listening to the interview and finding myself in agreement with much of what he said (though not everything, of course).

I cannot imagine any universe in which he had convinced himself trimming was OK.

[Bigdaddy]

Slightly OT - Does anyone know what happened to all the cards that were 'taken in' and money refunded? Surely they weren't destroyed, and I have not seen a Scarlet Letter applied to them as was much of the merch in Operation Bullpen. Unless they were destroyed, they've got to be somewhere.

Back on topic - Any chance going forward that PSA would incorporate SGC graded cards into its registry?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Slightly OT - Does anyone know what happened to all the cards that were 'taken in' and money refunded? Surely they weren't destroyed, and I have not seen a Scarlet Letter applied to them as was much of the merch in Operation Bullpen. Unless they were destroyed, they've got to be somewhere.

Back on topic - Any chance going forward that PSA would incorporate SGC graded cards into its registry?

My understanding is that the serial numbers are still valid. None of them have been decertified. I suspect they're either in PWCC's hands still or perhaps in law enforcement's hands? Who knows. Maybe they're all in Brent's personal vault at this point. But they're still valid, at least that's my understanding.