Trading with Dealers at Card Shows?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ncinin

Probably as entertaining as hearing a customer lecturing a dealer as to what comps are on the card (most of the time comps on an card with crappy eye appeal) and hearing the dealer say offer to buy a nice example of the card at those comps and don’t care what comps are and watch the buyer get pissed and storm off.

Heh. I run into this all the time and my answer is usually "that's very interesting, thanks for the information. I think you should buy it on eBay." Gets some real head-scratching in response.

The comp bandits don't think deeper about what the comp represents. A sale online and in person are not the same, especially in lower priced cards. The financial reality is that most buyers at a show are already enjoying a substantial discount over the online cost to them simply by taking shipping out of the equation on a card worth $20-$50, so the online comp isn't really apples to oranges. But I'd say that a substantial majority of collectors forget the shipping costs when looking at an online price.

There really isn't a rule for how to make a trade because there isn't a static situation and there are a variety of factors going into it on both sides. At best, there are guidelines for what to expect, but every situation has its own norms. There are so many factors:

Is the card a hard to move niche card not blazing condition?

Is it an eBay or smaller auction kind of a card? If I sell it there, I don't get the market price, I net out 80%-85% of market with the vig, so if I can trade it at a full retail valuation, I am already ahead of what I could net by selling it.

Is the item in my wheelhouse and can I trade into something I really collector or deal in? if not, I am going to pay less for it.

Is the card slabbed or raw and whichever it is, does it fit with what I do? I deal primarily in raw vintage cards. Many newer dealers lack the expertise to handle raw cards and will trade at a premium to get slabs.

Is there an opportunity to leverage my knowledge of a niche? If I find a dealer who has certain types of cards but little apparent knowledge of them, I can cherry-pick all of the underpriced raw cards he had in his inventory and end up with cards that I would retail at substantially more than the value of what I traded. Many newbs are unaware of the price multiple on high numbered cards or variations, for example, and if I am trading into $3-$5 commons at $0.50 each, I am going to do very well when I sell them to set builders. One of my niche areas is printing freaks. I found one batch of cards with some really radical miscuts and misprints and the dealer was so amused that I was buying those 'crappy' cards that he even joked about it with his co-worker. Yeah, and I am pulling $10-$100 cards out of your dollar bin, so feel free to laugh away.

[Luke]

It's kind of like anything in life where you have to add value for someone if you want them to do a deal with you or help you out. I have a bunch of hobby friends who have already provided me a lot a value and I'll do lateral trades or whatever with them no problem. I have a few guys who offer me lots at prices where I can make a few bucks and they like that I pay immediately and don't haggle. Sometimes I add up what I'm getting and I'm not sure it's quite break-even but I'll say yes anyway because I figure the next batch will probably be a good buy.

I have a buddy who also sells stuff and a few times he and I have made a deal where one of us gets a very big card and the other gets a big stack of inventory. Probably neither of us would do that type of trade with a stranger but we knew the negotiations would be easy, and it has worked out great.

With a dealer you don't know, it's tougher. Just have to start by asking if they trade and see how they react. If they seem hesitant or not into it, probably try another dealer.

[Snapolit1]

People who set up at card shows are on a business trip trying to make money. It’s not a get together of 12 year olds in their parents’ garage.

They will trade with you only if they size you up and quickly assess that you are a rube who doesn’t know what he has.

Not true of all dealers of course. Only about 98% of them.

[Leon]

When people start looking at comps, I usually laugh. Generally speaking, I don't want to sell or trade in average looking cards. I am not a slab collector though...

I received this in my last trade (done on the BST) and gave up an equally nice card...
.

[Snapolit1]

I've never been a trader.

I don't know how you trade without being cognizant of market value (comps).

If my card just sold for $500 last week, and your card sold last month for $300, why would I trade you a $500 card for a $300 card? Wouldn't it make sense to sell my card for around $500 and try to find the other card for around $300. And pocket the rest?

Maybe the comps are stale and unreliable for obscure stuff like Leon references above. Or maybe in thinly sold cards you will do anything to grab something. Or maybe people just want to make a trade for the sake of making a trade because it feels fun. A few people on BST have approached me about trades and it typically goes like this:

My card/photo is for sale for $2000.

Hey would you be interested in any of these?

I look and "these" are worth (based on comps) like $1000.

Nah, not really looking for a trade.

[marcmandel]

For me as a customer, trading cards with other collectors is a big part of the hobby. Also, trading with dealers where it makes sense, and I have done a number of large (6 figure, sometimes) trades at shows with some of my favorite guys with them on the dealer side of the table.

From my perspective a dealer is not generally trading for their own PC, even if they have a PC at all. Many don't collect and just see cards as inventory which if I were them, I'd agree and understand entirely.

Assuming this, the best trades for my dealer friends and for me was an understanding that the trade balance/imbalance comes down to liquidity of the cards I'm offering in trade. Highly liquid cards are often seen as cash equivalents and will obviously trade at nearer to true market value than less liquid product that a dealer will have to haul from show to show for months or more and not allow them to recoup their money.

One dealer in particular, my dear friend Ashish Jain for example once told me that he sees great cards as cash equivalents and that he can make money on those great cards in either a trade up or a trade down scenario at a fair price. Not me gouging him nor him generally gouging me. Fair- a win-win in many ways.

I think trading is both fun and a key part of the card experience, again, it all coming down to the question of liquidity and being the "right cards" for the particular dealer you may be looking to trade with.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by marcmandel

For me as a customer, trading cards with other collectors is a big part of the hobby. Also, trading with dealers where it makes sense, and I have done a number of large (6 figure, sometimes) trades at shows with some of my favorite guys with them on the dealer side of the table.

From my perspective a dealer is not generally trading for their own PC, even if they have a PC at all. Many don't collect and just see cards as inventory which if I were them, I'd agree and understand entirely.

Assuming this, the best trades for my dealer friends and for me was an understanding that the trade balance/imbalance comes down to liquidity of the cards I'm offering in trade. Highly liquid cards are often seen as cash equivalents and will obviously trade at nearer to true market value than less liquid product that a dealer will have to haul from show to show for months or more and not allow them to recoup their money.

One dealer in particular, my dear friend Ashish Jain for example once told me that he sees great cards as cash equivalents and that he can make money on those great cards in either a trade up or a trade down scenario at a fair price. Not me gouging him nor him generally gouging me. Fair- a win-win in many ways.

I think trading is both fun and a key part of the card experience, again, it all coming down to the question of liquidity and being the "right cards" for the particular dealer you may be looking to trade with.

I enjoy giving Ashsh 95% of all my business at cards shows. I even worked out a trade with him for a "sought after" dandee Mantle that was on my last nerve. Was in and out of the Burbank show in 45 minutes yesterday with a "Big" Card...and no waiting in line at "Beckett" to get the broken slab reholdered. It was worth the $500 hit. He will sell it in a minute. I also had to throw in a chunk of cash, for an old B & W card with low eye appeal & low pops. The Mantle was a boil on my ass for 3 months like no other card and deal I ever made. It was like an old car that keeps breaking down...couldn't wait to get rid of it.

2nd show in a year (Last Burbank show was my first in 32 years.) Also my first "trade" in 35 years.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I've never been a trader.

I have always preferred trading and do it very regularly.

I don't know how you trade without being cognizant of market value (comps).

With a dealer that is important. If you really only care about collecting cards many times actual value doesn't matter. I have made countless trades that one persons items are worth WAY more than the others and still both people are extremely happy with the trade.

If my card just sold for $500 last week, and your card sold last month for $300, why would I trade you a $500 card for a $300 card? Wouldn't it make sense to sell my card for around $500 and try to find the other card for around $300. And pocket the rest?

Maybe but if your card actually sold for $500 how much do you think you will really receive after selling fees. So in many cases a persons time of selling something is worth more than the actual extra cash you will end up saving.

Maybe the comps are stale and unreliable for obscure stuff like Leon references above. Or maybe in thinly sold cards you will do anything to grab something. Or maybe people just want to make a trade for the sake of making a trade because it feels fun. A few people on BST have approached me about trades and it typically goes like this:

My card/photo is for sale for $2000.

Hey would you be interested in any of these?

I look and "these" are worth (based on comps) like $1000.

Nah, not really looking for a trade.

Trades usually only work with those that want/like to trade and we are few and far between. We all know the guy that is always offering stuff for trade. Then when you contact them they want a T206 Wagner and a kidney for their beat up Gregg Jeffries rookie.

[Leon]

I wish I had a dime for all of the times I was offered junk for gold!

and a random card....
.

Originally Posted by bnorth

Trades usually only work with those that want/like to trade and we are few and far between. We all know the guy that is always offering stuff for trade. Then when you contact them they want a T206 Wagner and a kidney for their beat up Gregg Jeffries rookie.

[Leon]

It's usually easier when you know your trading partner, though I have a few friends it's not so easy with
.

Originally Posted by Luke

It's kind of like anything in life where you have to add value for someone if you want them to do a deal with you or help you out. I have a bunch of hobby friends who have already provided me a lot a value and I'll do lateral trades or whatever with them no problem. I have a few guys who offer me lots at prices where I can make a few bucks and they like that I pay immediately and don't haggle. Sometimes I add up what I'm getting and I'm not sure it's quite break-even but I'll say yes anyway because I figure the next batch will probably be a good buy.

I have a buddy who also sells stuff and a few times he and I have made a deal where one of us gets a very big card and the other gets a big stack of inventory. Probably neither of us would do that type of trade with a stranger but we knew the negotiations would be easy, and it has worked out great.

With a dealer you don't know, it's tougher. Just have to start by asking if they trade and see how they react. If they seem hesitant or not into it, probably try another dealer.

[wondo]

Had a great experience at the Philly Show this weekend doing a part cash / part trade deal with fellow board member, Howard Chasser. He always has some amazing offerings. I found an upgrade for my collection (both condition and variation) and offered the card being upgraded plus cash. Deal was done in less than a minute - I was ecstatic to get a great card and I'm assuming Howard was happy with the transaction from a dealer perspective. He even made some accommodations for payment.

Point being is that I was realistic in my expectations when offering, and Howard is a straight-forward no bullshit guy. Both attributes made the deal work. Thank you, Howard!

Now I gotta work on getting some cash together for that Stahl Meyer Mantle....

[raulus]

Originally Posted by wondo

Now I gotta work on getting some cash together for that Stahl Meyer Mantle....

By any chance, did you pick up different Stahl-Meyer from Howard?

[wondo]

Originally Posted by raulus

By any chance, did you pick up different Stahl-Meyer from Howard?

I did not - 1951 Ringside panel.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by wondo

I did not - 1951 Ringside panel.

salesman sample (8x) or pack-issued panel (2x)? Who'd you get?