Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought part of the thinking was no pack issued Piedmont backs have been found. Could it have been a panel, i don't know, but the point is that it was not originally a factory issued single.

I have no idea what the origin is. We've had members claim to have evidence of the origin but then stop posting once they are asked for it. There's the rumor photographs of the pre-trimmed state that nobody has ever shown. We have different versions, sometimes conflicting, told at different times from some of the people involved.

It seems very unlikely that there was an uncut sheet found, or a nearly uncut sheet. The single subject presentation of it and the Plank make this very, very unlikely - what we have does not match a sheet. Maybe it was strips. Maybe there were some oversized scraps. Maybe the cards are the product of the conspiracy theory of a 1950's perfect reprint ring that has been endorsed here. Maybe Santa made them in his shop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have no idea what the origin is. We've had members claim to have evidence of the origin but then stop posting once they are asked for it. There's the rumor photographs of the pre-trimmed state that nobody has ever shown. We have different versions, sometimes conflicting, told at different times from some of the people involved.

It seems very unlikely that there was an uncut sheet found, or a nearly uncut sheet. The single subject presentation of it and the Plank make this very, very unlikely - what we have does not match a sheet. Maybe it was strips. Maybe there were some oversized scraps. Maybe the cards are the product of the conspiracy theory of a 1950's perfect reprint ring that has been endorsed here. Maybe Santa made them in his shop.

Perhaps it was a strip not a full sheet. Again, I think the Piedmont back is part of the analysis why it likely was not from a pack. Not my expertise though. I've heard that 50s rumor too, what more do you know about it, always found that interesting. Part of the issue is that the provenance does not go back beyond Alan Ray, as far as I know.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps it was a strip not a full sheet. Again, I think the Piedmont back is part of the analysis why it likely was not from a pack. Not my expertise though. I've heard that 50s rumor too, what more do you know about it, always found that interesting. Part of the issue is that the provenance does not go back beyond Alan Ray, as far as I know.

I believe the myth of the perfect-50's-fake-ring predates when I was even born. It was certainly circulating when I was a kid in the hobby even. It's a hobby oral tradition that crops up now and again, but I always hear a slightly different version. The consistent elements every time are that it was centered in the 50's and 60's, in New York or an unnamed place, had access to original equipment (often said to be plates, even though they didn't use printing plates at all for these) and involved multiple people (none of whom ever have a name). This ring produced fake Wagners and Planks and is sometimes said to have created the Doyle's that did not even exist at all originally. A number of the big cards to crop up in the 70's and 80's supposedly come from this ring. I doubt any of this is significantly different from what you and everyone else has heard over the years.

Obviously, it is untrue and just an old wives type of tale, like most 'perfect crime' stories where nobody telling it can state how they know this, who specifically did it, produce even a tiny shred of evidence, and wraps up too cleanly and vaguely.


Off memory, we had a poster claiming the sheet was found in New York and not the Florida market where I believe Ray claimed to find it in our last thread focused on the card. He declined to produce his alleged evidence (it doesn't exist) and stopped posting when asked for it. I would doubt the card was pack issued or that the card is fake, the back is a clue it's less likely to be pack issued but the circumstances of the find seem the stronger proof that this wasn't a card that was just found in somebody's things like all/most of the rest of the Wagner's and Plank's known. I don't know what the true origin is, but its almost certainly not an "uncut sheet" as is always said on this subject, because the output does not match that input.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I believe the myth of the perfect-50's-fake-ring predates when I was even born. It was certainly circulating when I was a kid in the hobby even. It's a hobby oral tradition that crops up now and again, but I always hear a slightly different version. The consistent elements every time are that it was centered in the 50's and 60's, in New York or an unnamed place, had access to original equipment (often said to be plates, even though they didn't use printing plates at all for these) and involved multiple people (none of whom ever have a name). This ring produced fake Wagners and Planks and is sometimes said to have created the Doyle's that did not even exist at all originally. A number of the big cards to crop up in the 70's and 80's supposedly come from this ring. I doubt any of this is significantly different from what you and everyone else has heard over the years.

Obviously, it is untrue and just an old wives type of tale, like most 'perfect crime' stories where nobody telling it can state how they know this, who specifically did it, produce even a tiny shred of evidence, and wraps up too cleanly and vaguely.


Off memory, we had a poster claiming the sheet was found in New York and not the Florida market where I believe Ray claimed to find it in our last thread focused on the card. He declined to produce his alleged evidence (it doesn't exist) and stopped posting when asked for it. I would doubt the card was pack issued or that the card is fake, the back is a clue it's less likely to be pack issued but the circumstances of the find seem the stronger proof that this wasn't a card that was just found in somebody's things like all/most of the rest of the Wagner's and Plank's known. I don't know what the true origin is, but its almost certainly not an "uncut sheet" as is always said on this subject, because the output does not match that input.

If it's not pack issued, it was an AUTH even before Mastro cut it, would you agree with that or do you have a different take? All I recall about the rumor is it had something to do with Long Island which is also where Sevchuk had his shop.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's not pack issued, it was an AUTH even before Mastro cut it, would you agree with that or do you have a different take? All I recall about the rumor is it had something to do with Long Island which is also where Sevchuk had his shop.

I would have a slightly different take. A card is not automatically an Auth for not coming in a pack. If a card is fully printed and machine cut, I don’t see how it isn’t eligible for a grade. For example, many Topps Vault cards have been given grades because they were fully produced and machine cut. Being in a pack isn’t the determination. Being handcut is. Whether it was trimmed once or twice seems irrelevant. The big problem is if they cut it off a sheet. Trimming after that is just more trimming, it’s already trimmed.

Ray’s story is his sheet was from a Florida flea market, as I recall. He took it to Sevchuck’s shop, but there’s no one besides Ray who can attest to anything before he did that, just his story.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's not pack issued, it was an AUTH even before Mastro cut it, would you agree with that or do you have a different take? All I recall about the rumor is it had something to do with Long Island which is also where Sevchuk had his shop.

I think it is highly unlikely that the Gretzky Wagner is an original T206 printed card from 1909-1911. There's just way too much shadiness surrounding the story. It doesn't add up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it is highly unlikely that the Gretzky Wagner is an original T206 printed card from 1909-1911. There's just way too much shadiness surrounding the story. It doesn't add up.

How so? What do you think doesn't add up? That it wouldn't have survived in even as nice condition as when Ray sold it to Mastro? That it has a Piedmont back? That there's no provenance pre Ray or a relative acquiring it in Florida?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How so? What do you think doesn't add up? That it wouldn't have survived in even as nice condition as when Ray sold it to Mastro? That it has a Piedmont back? That there's no provenance pre Ray or a relative acquiring it in Florida?

It's all of that put together. Plus the fact that his story changed multiple times. And everyone involved just seems shady to begin with. And multiple experienced dealers claiming that they passed on the card when being offered it at the time. The provenance is a big problem to me.