Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If as is commonly believed the Wagner was sheet cut and not pack issued, why does it matter if it was then trimmed? It was never anything but an AUTH.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If as is commonly believed the Wagner was sheet cut and not pack issued, why does it matter if it was then trimmed? It was never anything but an AUTH.

It doesn't. It is AUTH. As a story, it sounds better / juicier because Mastro used either scissors or an office paper cutter or something to get it out of the sheet. It doesn't matter that he didn't "trim" 1/64 or whatever off the edge like we think of in traditional "trimming" to those telling the story of why the card is bad, or why Bill did something wrong.

But yes, to say that David Hall and others in that room didn't know it was at least sheet cut is absurd. That guy once owned the most complete T206 master set in the world? On the 30 for 30 he says "It didn't look trimmed to me." Really? Jeez do better. That's what an 11 year old kid at a card show would say. They were paying PSA, as supposedly the world's foremost experts on that type of cards - and that's the explanation PSA came up with? No wonder there will never be any "grading reports" out of that outfit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

It doesn't. It is AUTH. As a story, it sounds better / juicier because Mastro used either scissors or an office paper cutter or something to get it out of the sheet. It doesn't matter that he didn't "trim" 1/64 or whatever off the edge like we think of in traditional "trimming" to those telling the story of why the card is bad, or why Bill did something wrong.

But yes, to say that David Hall and others in that room didn't know it was at least sheet cut is absurd. That guy once owned the most complete T206 master set in the world? On the 30 for 30 he says "It didn't look trimmed to me." Really? Jeez do better. That's what an 11 year old kid at a card show would say. They were paying PSA, as supposedly the world's foremost experts on that type of cards - and that's the explanation they come up with? No wonder there will never be any "grading reports" out of that outfit.

As I understand it, it was already sheet cut when Mastro acquired it. He didn't cut it from the sheet, that was done at an unknown time by an unknown person.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I understand it, it was already sheet cut when Mastro acquired it. He didn't cut it from the sheet, that was done at an unknown time by an unknown person.

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

[campyfan39]

He admitted to trimming it with a paper cutter to make the borders better and corners sharper. This after denying it multiple times of course.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

He admitted to trimming it with a paper cutter to make the borders better and corners sharper. This after denying it multiple times of course.

Yep. Got caught on a wire saying that when the Feds were looking for something else.

[Seven]

I think some very interesting and well written points have been made, I wanted to chime in and comment on a few things.

I am not going to pretend like I am an expert at identifying alteration, far from it. Concerning grading, I also live by the adage "Buy the card, not the grade." I would also say, I've purchased cards that have been labeled by the grading companies as "altered" as I have found that I can get a nice looking card, that presents well, for a fraction of the price.

Altering has been going on in our hobby, for a long time. The unfortunate part is that so many cards slip through the cracks, that are altered and then assigned number grades all the same. If you want to soak or trim your cards, for your own personal collection, I am not going to judge you.

I do have a problem with the people that do it, strictly for some sort of financial gain. It's dishonest, and I know there's a lot of dishonesty in the world, but I think it's a damn shame that it occurs. You can call my viewpoint naïve, but that's what I maintain. It doesn't surprise me that it occurs, but I don't like it.

It was also referenced before, I can't recall which post off the top of my head. It aggravates me to no end, that certain parties or individuals can get away with submitting clearly altered cards, or altered cards with a long history, and yet still receive number grades. I'm not calling out specific parties due to the nature of the rules, and myself wanting my name to be private, if there's an issue with this paragraph, Leon, I will gladly delete it.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

In the book "The Card" it says that Bill Mastro gave Rob Lifson (who founded REA) a lesser Wagner (which Lifson sold weeks later for $30K) in exchange for $25K to buy the jumbo Wagner from a guy named Alan Ray who had consigned the card (along with an Eddie Plank and many others) to Bill Sevchuck, who owned a card store in Hicksville, NY.

The Wagner had wavy edges and a red printer's line at the top. Mastro apparently commented about the Wagner, "It's not cut right, but I'll take it off your hands."

After Mastro obtained the jumbo Wagner, he proceeded to trim it so that it had straight edges.

Alan Ray has never definitively said where he got the cards from, but at one point claimed it was a relative.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I thought that him and Rob L. saw / bought the original piece when it was a sheet (with other cards) in the early 1980's. I could be wrong on that.

If what you say is right, then maybe Bill's was a more "traditional" trim job, if the card resembled something like the Jumbo Wagner just with oversized borders when they got it.

No, it was a single card when Alan Ray sold it to him. But sheet cut by all accounts. I don't think anyone has traced it back to the owner of the sheet. But if this is correct, all Mastro did was make a nicer looking AUTH. The whole trimmed or not trimmed thing seems a red herring.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, it was a single card when Alan Ray sold it to him. But sheet cut by all accounts. I don't think anyone has traced it back to the owner of the sheet. But if this is correct, all Mastro did was make a nicer looking AUTH. The whole trimmed or not trimmed thing seems a red herring.

The whole story has always fascinated me. It is true today you hear "trimmed" way more often in relation to that card (now Ken Kendrick's Wagner) than you do tell of it being sheet cut or just AUTH.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

The whole story has always fascinated me. It is true today you hear "trimmed" way more often in relation to that card (now Ken Kendrick's Wagner) than you do tell of it being sheet cut or just AUTH.

I have never understood the emphasis.