2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'd love to see Helton just miss again. He's lost more votes than he has gained from returning voters so far, down -1, which makes it hard to pick up any ground. He's a fringe candidate for me based on his career, but I don't like rewarding a habitual drunk driver. I'd be fine making him wait the ten years if he only had one DUI, but once he got the second and left the scene of an accident too, I had zero respect for him.

People are out here not voting for Vizquel because of a clubhouse incident that affected one person, or Andruw Jones because of his spousal abuse, which I'm completely fine with in both cases. I wouldn't vote for either of them for those reasons. If they were slam dunk cases for the HOF, then I'd withhold a vote for 2-3 years, or one year like people did with Roberto Alomar. Yet people are fine with Helton getting caught twice on the road drunk. Who knows how many times he just risked lives of everyone else around him those days. It's probably in the hundreds judging by the time gap alone.

Please don't defend Helton's actions either, because I won't ever see his side or your side of it. He made nine figures in salary during his career, he could have had a personal driver 24/7. That makes it even worse, but it's not even something specific to him. I have literally one relative out of a huge family with one DUI and the best thing I can say about what they did is that they didn't hurt anyone else with their own accident. Don't drive and drive ever or stand up for someone who does.

I absolutely love your stance on drunk driving. The HOF is a complete joke on many levels. I would still like to visit it someday.

[packs]

I'm not sure I see what others see in Billy Wagner. Capable closer, yes. But what makes him a HOFer? Because he was decent for a while?

There are eight relief pitchers in the HOF. In the last twenty years Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Dennis Eckersly, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter and Lee Smith were elected.

Gossage pitched twice as many innings as Wagner. Eckersly won an MVP and Cy Young as closer, Sutter won a Cy Young, while Smith, Hoffman and Rivera all held the all time saves mark for a period of time. What does Billy Wagner bring to the table that he'd be in the same company?

And does all that much really separate Billy Wagner and Jonathan Papelbon? I don't think anyone would put Papelbon in.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not sure I see what others see in Billy Wagner. Capable closer, yes. But what makes him a HOFer? Because he was decent for a while?

His workload is historically weak, but in his 15 full seasons only 1 was bad.

7 of those 15 he had a sub-1.00 WHIP. 14 out of 15 he had a sub-1.20 WHIP.

ERA isn't a great stat, but sub-3.00 ERA in 14 out of 15 seasons. For a guy that gets a full inning vs lineups also using up their bench as a last resort it's worth something. He had a sub-2.50 ERA in 9 out 15 (sub-2.00 ERA in 5 out of 15).

The current closer as we know it has only been around since the early/mid-1980s. Unless a failed starter racks up some innings we may never see an excellent closer with more than 1000 innings. "Strong" closers these days might work 1.1ip every so often.

I don't think anyone would complain about having Wagner around during his entire career as their closer...except the Yankees.

[packs]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

His workload is historically weak, but in his 15 full seasons only 1 was bad.

7 of those 15 he had a sub-1.00 WHIP. 14 out of 15 he had a sub-1.20 WHIP.

ERA isn't a great stat, but sub-3.00 ERA in 14 out of 15 seasons. For a guy that gets a full inning vs lineups also using up their bench as a last resort it's worth something. He had a sub-2.50 ERA in 9 out 15 (sub-2.00 ERA in 5 out of 15).

The current closer as we know it has only been around since the early/mid-1980s. Unless a failed starter racks up some innings we may never see an excellent closer with more than 1000 innings. "Strong" closers these days might work 1.1ip every so often.

I don't think anyone would complain about having Wagner around during his entire career as their closer...except the Yankees.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just wondering what makes him a HOFer. Statistically speaking, he is ranked one spot above Joe Nathan, another guy I don't think anyone considers a HOfer.

Joe Nathan was a pitcher with a sub 2.00 ERA five times, with three in a row at one point. His WAR is one less than Wagner's as well with a similar amount of innings pitched.

I just don't see the separation between them where it makes sense Wagner is a HOFer but Nathan didn't get the required 5% last year to stay on the ballot.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see the separation between them where it makes sense Wagner is a HOFer but Nathan didn't get the required 5% last year to stay on the ballot.

Nathan was great (imo), but only for 9 seasons. He earned all 6 of his All-Star nods, and probably deserved at least the 7 that Wagner got.

As far as an early exit, and not to move goalposts or change the subject, but Kenny Lofton deserved a -lot- more than an early exit off the ballot. I don't understand some voters.

[toppcat]

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

[BioCRN]

As much as I like Wagner as a HOF'r, he's not a guy who's hill I'd die on to say he absolutely belongs in the Hall.

That said, he is a guy I strongly believe will get in and I have been hording graded cards of him for a long time. The hobby speculation on him has gotten crazy the past couple years so it's not just me gambling on this.

His 1994 Bowman PSA 9 has been so high the past couple years I've traded a couple because it's already at a rather insane price.

My personal favorite is his 1994 Topps Bilingual. I have 2 and plan on keeping 1 for the personal collection.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

This is a very good point.

Wagner was one of the best regular season relievers ever.
He ranks #1 for any LHP in the live-ball era in WHIP (.998) and ERA (2.31) with a minimum or 900 innings pitches (he pitched only 903).

He ranks #1 for opponent batting average at .187 (no one else is even below .200). He could give up 100 consecutive straight hits and still have a lower opponent BA than Mariano Rivera.

And his K/9 inning of 11.92 is the best ever.

But he was dreadful in the postseason. ERA over 10. He appeared in the postseason in 7 seasons, and lost 7 of 8 series, never making it to a World Series. Other relievers in the Hall of Fame: Fingers, Eckersley, Rivera, Lee Smith, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Gossage have all pitched well in the postseason (with the exception of Lee Smith and to a lesser extent Hoffman), and Fingers, Eckersley, Wilhelm, Gossage, and Rivera all won World Series.

With Wagner, I think it comes down to how much you value postseason play. If you place a premium on postseason play, he's a hard sell. Otherwise, I think he belongs.

[eastonfalcon19]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.