2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

[z28jd]

I'd love to see Helton just miss again. He's lost more votes than he has gained from returning voters so far, down -1, which makes it hard to pick up any ground. He's a fringe candidate for me based on his career, but I don't like rewarding a habitual drunk driver. I'd be fine making him wait the ten years if he only had one DUI, but once he got the second and left the scene of an accident too, I had zero respect for him.

People are out here not voting for Vizquel because of a clubhouse incident that affected one person, or Andruw Jones because of his spousal abuse, which I'm completely fine with in both cases. I wouldn't vote for either of them for those reasons. If they were slam dunk cases for the HOF, then I'd withhold a vote for 2-3 years, or one year like people did with Roberto Alomar. Yet people are fine with Helton getting caught twice on the road drunk. Who knows how many times he just risked lives of everyone else around him those days. It's probably in the hundreds judging by the time gap alone.

Please don't defend Helton's actions either, because I won't ever see his side or your side of it. He made nine figures in salary during his career, he could have had a personal driver 24/7. That makes it even worse, but it's not even something specific to him. I have literally one relative out of a huge family with one DUI and the best thing I can say about what they did is that they didn't hurt anyone else with their own accident. Don't drive and drive ever or stand up for someone who does.

[The Detroit Collector]

Beltre is a sure thing.
I actually don't think Mauer gets in. It took Piazza 4 years and the stats are similar aside from home runs.
Helton I would say does get in.

[Svabinsky78]

I am honestly shocked at how strongly Mauer is tracking. To me, at best, he is borderline, no way no how a first ballot.

Beltre....a lock. Just wondering at this point what % he'll land at. Glad I picked up his Savannah Sand Gnats minor league cards when I did. The two people that left Beltre off their ballots should have their voting privileges revoked.

Helton deserves it. Fantastic player. The Coors argument is way overblown.

Jones should be in. Yeah the second half of his career was abysmal, like Miggy's last five years, but the first 10 years, he was a monster of a player. I don't know, at almost 63 overall WAR, 430 HRs, 2000 hits, and 10 gold gloves (by most people's accounts, legitimately owning that position for those ten years), that to me is HOF worthy.

Beltran should be in. Phenomenal player. That stupid garbage can incident.....way too overblown.

Wagner was phenomenal for a long time but closers typically don't get much love. Wonder how Kimbrel will eventually fare. He is in Wagner's territory imo.

Sheffield was a great player but he has the specter of PEDs hanging over him....then again, you have Piazza, Pudge, Bags, and most recently, Big Pappi already in....

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Svabinsky78

Helton deserves it. Fantastic player. The Coors argument is way overblown.

I disagree. He hit 58 points higher at Coors than elsewhere (.345 vs .287). In 3% more games (1141 vs 1106), he hit 60% more homers at Coors than elsewhere (227 vs 142). .469 slugging outside of Coors.

Double his road stats and you've got a .287 1B with 284 homers AKA a guy no one would advocate for.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I disagree. He hit 58 points higher at Coors than elsewhere (.345 vs .287). In 3% more games (1141 vs 1106), he hit 60% more homers at Coors than elsewhere (227 vs 142). .469 slugging outside of Coors.

Double his road stats and you've got a .287 1B with 284 homers AKA a guy no one would advocate for.

I don't think that this is a fair way to assess Helton this way. Most players hit better at home, and many hit significantly better at home. There is also research that hitting at Coors (where the ball movement is different than in other parks) hurts hitters when they go on the road.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'd love to see Helton just miss again. He's lost more votes than he has gained from returning voters so far, down -1, which makes it hard to pick up any ground. He's a fringe candidate for me based on his career, but I don't like rewarding a habitual drunk driver. I'd be fine making him wait the ten years if he only had one DUI, but once he got the second and left the scene of an accident too, I had zero respect for him.

People are out here not voting for Vizquel because of a clubhouse incident that affected one person, or Andruw Jones because of his spousal abuse, which I'm completely fine with in both cases. I wouldn't vote for either of them for those reasons. If they were slam dunk cases for the HOF, then I'd withhold a vote for 2-3 years, or one year like people did with Roberto Alomar. Yet people are fine with Helton getting caught twice on the road drunk. Who knows how many times he just risked lives of everyone else around him those days. It's probably in the hundreds judging by the time gap alone.

Please don't defend Helton's actions either, because I won't ever see his side or your side of it. He made nine figures in salary during his career, he could have had a personal driver 24/7. That makes it even worse, but it's not even something specific to him. I have literally one relative out of a huge family with one DUI and the best thing I can say about what they did is that they didn't hurt anyone else with their own accident. Don't drive and drive ever or stand up for someone who does.

I absolutely love your stance on drunk driving. The HOF is a complete joke on many levels. I would still like to visit it someday.

[packs]

I'm not sure I see what others see in Billy Wagner. Capable closer, yes. But what makes him a HOFer? Because he was decent for a while?

There are eight relief pitchers in the HOF. In the last twenty years Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Dennis Eckersly, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter and Lee Smith were elected.

Gossage pitched twice as many innings as Wagner. Eckersly won an MVP and Cy Young as closer, Sutter won a Cy Young, while Smith, Hoffman and Rivera all held the all time saves mark for a period of time. What does Billy Wagner bring to the table that he'd be in the same company?

And does all that much really separate Billy Wagner and Jonathan Papelbon? I don't think anyone would put Papelbon in.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not sure I see what others see in Billy Wagner. Capable closer, yes. But what makes him a HOFer? Because he was decent for a while?

His workload is historically weak, but in his 15 full seasons only 1 was bad.

7 of those 15 he had a sub-1.00 WHIP. 14 out of 15 he had a sub-1.20 WHIP.

ERA isn't a great stat, but sub-3.00 ERA in 14 out of 15 seasons. For a guy that gets a full inning vs lineups also using up their bench as a last resort it's worth something. He had a sub-2.50 ERA in 9 out 15 (sub-2.00 ERA in 5 out of 15).

The current closer as we know it has only been around since the early/mid-1980s. Unless a failed starter racks up some innings we may never see an excellent closer with more than 1000 innings. "Strong" closers these days might work 1.1ip every so often.

I don't think anyone would complain about having Wagner around during his entire career as their closer...except the Yankees.

[packs]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

His workload is historically weak, but in his 15 full seasons only 1 was bad.

7 of those 15 he had a sub-1.00 WHIP. 14 out of 15 he had a sub-1.20 WHIP.

ERA isn't a great stat, but sub-3.00 ERA in 14 out of 15 seasons. For a guy that gets a full inning vs lineups also using up their bench as a last resort it's worth something. He had a sub-2.50 ERA in 9 out 15 (sub-2.00 ERA in 5 out of 15).

The current closer as we know it has only been around since the early/mid-1980s. Unless a failed starter racks up some innings we may never see an excellent closer with more than 1000 innings. "Strong" closers these days might work 1.1ip every so often.

I don't think anyone would complain about having Wagner around during his entire career as their closer...except the Yankees.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just wondering what makes him a HOFer. Statistically speaking, he is ranked one spot above Joe Nathan, another guy I don't think anyone considers a HOfer.

Joe Nathan was a pitcher with a sub 2.00 ERA five times, with three in a row at one point. His WAR is one less than Wagner's as well with a similar amount of innings pitched.

I just don't see the separation between them where it makes sense Wagner is a HOFer but Nathan didn't get the required 5% last year to stay on the ballot.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see the separation between them where it makes sense Wagner is a HOFer but Nathan didn't get the required 5% last year to stay on the ballot.

Nathan was great (imo), but only for 9 seasons. He earned all 6 of his All-Star nods, and probably deserved at least the 7 that Wagner got.

As far as an early exit, and not to move goalposts or change the subject, but Kenny Lofton deserved a -lot- more than an early exit off the ballot. I don't understand some voters.

[toppcat]

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.