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#51
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If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different. They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn’t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you’d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud. The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. . Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I’m not seeing any logical way this isn’t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense. |
#52
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 07:25 PM. |
#53
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It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of. That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud. |
#54
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I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that at some point the grading companies are going to start purposely giving number grades to obviously trimmed cards (instead of pretending they're not aware of it), perhaps with a 'TR' qualifier or just the words "Evidence of Trimming" noted right on the label beneath the number grade. Seems like the logical next step for them.
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm Looking to trade? Here's my bucket: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706 “I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.” Casey Stengel Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s. Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow. |
#55
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 08:00 PM. |
#56
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Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.
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#57
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Nothing in this hobby makes sense. I used to care but after it caused me a LOT of problems I now just laugh and say nice card(s). |
#58
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I often think that hobbyists can’t be this gullible, illogical and dumb. That thought still hasn’t rectified the situation |
#59
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__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#60
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The analogy is a material fact being dishonestly presented. Change it to any exact setup you would like. |
#61
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Or guy needs a PSA 9 for his registry. He'll pay the same for a PSA 9 even if you tell him it's trimmed. The flip is what he wants.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 08:47 PM. |
#62
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Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.
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#63
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 08:52 PM. |
#64
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I could easily find you two copies of the same card in similar condition, one which has been trimmed and the other which has not, where the trimmed copy would pass grading nearly every time and the untrimmed copy would get rejected nearly every time. In this circumstance, the market dictates that the trimmed card is worth more than the untrimmed card. The market determines card values. Not you.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#65
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That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously. |
#66
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Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 08:58 PM. |
#67
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__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#68
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Again, for those who cannot even follow a three to four sentence argument, I have written the premises and conclusion several times. The raw example is to set that it is material; as when honestly presented the trimmed copy is worth less. There’s a reason I win the trimmed sharp looking card and not the one that’s not altered. There’s a reason the fraudsters don’t sell it as trimmed. If it had the same value, why lie? It establishes materiality. |
#69
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I can only imagine how many fraudsters in prison would love to learn this information. If you fool someone, it becomes okay. That makes sense. |
#70
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 09:01 PM. |
#71
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If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. Last edited by Snowman; 01-12-2024 at 09:09 PM. |
#72
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See previous repeated statements and prior question.
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#73
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This is not to say I condone trimming or defend card doctors and their enablers, my views on that have not changed one iota. I am just making an empirical observation about the state of the hobby, and explaining how that fits into the logical framework of how criminal law does or does not apply.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-12-2024 at 09:16 PM. |
#74
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They grade trimmed cards as altered. The number grade means they don’t believe it to be trimmed, allegedly. They sell an opinion, NOTHING WHATSOEVER do they say is 100% true or false, for ass covering reasons. That they get fooled or are complicit does not make it not fraud.
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#75
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This headache-inducing thread has made me thankful that I shifted my focus towards memorabilia. Still love vintage cards, but the 3rd Party Opinion Givers have ruined it for me. That, and peoples' unwavering allegiance to the flip instead of the card itself.
A blatantly altered card (trimmed with nefarious intentions, to quintuple its price) is ushered through with a high number grade, while a completely original card that spent some time in a screw-down holder receives a grade of "A". What's wrong with this picture?
__________________
Be sure to subscribe to my YouTube Channel, The Stuff Of Greatness. New videos are uploaded every week... https://www.youtube.com/@tsogreatness/videos |
#76
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PSA and other grading companies not being able to catch (or seem to care too much about) trimming or those that are doing it is PURE NEGLIGENCE.
Sellers and Auction Houses that deal with the people that are known to do so is PURE NEGLIGENCE. The fact that we put up with people that are complicit (or as evidenced in this thread) or are apologists for this behavior is simply gross. Just because you can sneak something by a grader doesn't excuse that it is still a really s***ty thing to do. People that condone it or try to justify it as anything else are equally gross. We should be way more upset about these things than we seem to be.
__________________
Check out my YouTube Videos highlighting VINTAGE CARDS https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbE..._as=subscriber ebay store: kryvintage-->https://www.ebay.com/sch/kryvintage/...p2047675.l2562 |
#77
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Even if we assume that the registry owners wouldn't remove the PSA 9 from the set, all it proves is that registry owners will act in their self-interest and carry on the ruse for reputation and money, rather than take the bullet for the original card doctor and the corrupt and/or negligent third-party grader. Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes. The counterargument that slabbing changes the perception of value doesn't negate the materiality element of fraud; it speaks more to damages. Last edited by gunboat82; 01-13-2024 at 04:53 AM. Reason: Typo |
#78
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__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#79
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The reality though is that it's not just a few cards here or there. It's the majority of cards in every top registry set on the entire PSA registry. It's all a facade. Every single one of those cards are either laughably over graded, trimmed, or both. So learning the truth means that most of their cards are altered, but so are everyone else's. That's the rub. And that's why most of them won't care anyhow even if they learned it. You either play that silly registry game or you don't. And for those who do choose to compete on the registry, they're all buying flips, not cards. If they were interested in cards, they'd all be looking for centered copies with high eye appeal rather than these diamond cut cards with print lines that magically made their way into PSA 9 holders and 10s that have 1/8" between the card borders and the bumpers inside the holders.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#80
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__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it. |
#81
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Yes, of course the holder sanitizes the fraud, because most collectors trust PSA. Trimmed cards are not an issue they think applies to them. And if you looked at their cards and told them that these 10 are trimmed, it wouldn't be material to them because they wouldn't believe you. |
#82
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#83
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Interesting thing from my POV. We had a recent thread where guys aired their hobby grievances. I believe I was the ONLY one who even mentioned card doctoring.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#84
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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