Probstein video about trimmed cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

I understand we have a great number of hobbyists that love fraud (at least when committed by themselves or the people they like), but this makes no sense at all.

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards (altered anyhow) and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.

This is why I started at the beginning and used the example of an honestly listed card and the same card but untrimmed, both posted honestly and fully. Do we seriously dispute that the untrimmed one will sell for more and he seems a more valuable? No? Then we know the untrimmed example is worth more and we know exactly why nobody trimming cards is selling these cards as trimmed.

If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different.

They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn’t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you’d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud.

The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. .

Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I’m not seeing any logical way this isn’t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is why I started at the beginning and used the example of an honestly listed card and the same card but untrimmed, both posted honestly and fully. Do we seriously dispute that the untrimmed one will sell for more and he seems a more valuable? No? Then we know the untrimmed example is worth more and we know exactly why nobody trimming cards is selling these cards as trimmed.

If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different.

They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn’t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you’d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud.

The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. As to some of your prose, I am not sure authenticators are being tricked. I think they are, at least often, knowingly grading trimmed cards if they look OK, and giving the benefit of every doubt in any event.

Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I’m not seeing any logical way this isn’t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense.

Obviously I have believed as you do for all my time in the hobby. What I am seeing makes me now question it. What is anathema to me (trimming) seems a matter of indifference to much of the current hobby. And if that's so, we have to rewrite definitions of what fraud means in a hobby context. And who says authenticators are being tricked? What if they're complicit too, as I believe they are. My belilef is they made a deal with the devil long ago because high grade cards generate excitement, interest, and big bucks.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Obviously I have believed as you do for all my time in the hobby. What I am seeing makes me now question it. What is anathema to me (trimming) seems a matter of indifference to much of the current hobby. And if that's so, we have to rewrite definitions of what fraud means in a hobby context. And who says authenticators are being tricked? What if they're complicit too, as I believe they are. My belilef is they made a deal with the devil long ago because high grade cards generate excitement, interest, and big bucks.

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

[JollyElm]

I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that at some point the grading companies are going to start purposely giving number grades to obviously trimmed cards (instead of pretending they're not aware of it), perhaps with a 'TR' qualifier or just the words "Evidence of Trimming" noted right on the label beneath the number grade. Seems like the logical next step for them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that at some point the grading companies are going to start purposely giving number grades to obviously trimmed cards (instead of pretending they're not aware of it), perhaps with a 'TR' qualifier or just the words "Evidence of Trimming" noted right on the label beneath the number grade. Seems like the logical next step for them.

It's somewhat ridiculous already that they don't. Not all "Authentic Altered" cards are the same, and their valuations lie on a spectrum. Comic book grading companies do this. If a book is altered, it gets a different color label and then a grade. Some altered cards look incredible and I'm more than happy to own them. Others, not so much.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

The one big problem I see with your argument is who is so gullible they think a vintage high grade card hasn't had work done to it? One of my favorite high grade T206 Red Cobbs has so small of borders Stevie Wonder could see it has severely trimmed borders. If it come up for sale it would bring silly money. Everyone knows and maybe 3 people care and weirdly 2 of them collect mainly PSA cards in high grade.

Nothing in this hobby makes sense. I used to care but after it caused me a LOT of problems I now just laugh and say nice card(s).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you. Pun intended.

Or guy needs a PSA 9 for his registry. He'll pay the same for a PSA 9 even if you tell him it's trimmed. The flip is what he wants.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is not to say I condone trimming or defend card doctors and their enablers, my views on that have not changed one iota. I am just making an empirical observation about the state of the hobby, and explaining how that fits into the logical framework of how criminal law does or does not apply.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

You keep referring to cards "presented honestly", as if that's even relevant to its market value. A card's true history is unknown and unknowable to the market. This romantic idea that a historical record of everything that has happened to a card in the past somehow can (or should) follow it throughout it's life is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I could easily find you two copies of the same card in similar condition, one which has been trimmed and the other which has not, where the trimmed copy would pass grading nearly every time and the untrimmed copy would get rejected nearly every time. In this circumstance, the market dictates that the trimmed card is worth more than the untrimmed card. The market determines card values. Not you.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You keep referring to cards "presented honestly", as if that's even relevant to its market value. A card's true history is unknown and unknowable to the market. This romantic idea that a historical record of everything that has happened to a card in the past somehow can (or should) follow it throughout it's life is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I could easily find you two copies of the same card in similar condition, one which has been trimmed and the other which has not, where the trimmed copy would pass grading nearly every time and the untrimmed copy would get rejected nearly every time. In this circumstance, the market dictates that the trimmed card is worth more than the untrimmed card. The market determines card values. Not you.

When did I argue that card values are not set by actual sales? What?

Again, for those who cannot even follow a three to four sentence argument, I have written the premises and conclusion several times. The raw example is to set that it is material; as when honestly presented the trimmed copy is worth less. There’s a reason I win the trimmed sharp looking card and not the one that’s not altered. There’s a reason the fraudsters don’t sell it as trimmed. If it had the same value, why lie? It establishes materiality.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

When did I argue that card values are not set by actual sales? What?

Again, for those who cannot even follow a three to four sentence argument, I have written the premises and conclusion several times. The raw example is to set that it is material; as when honestly presented the trimmed copy is worth less. There’s a reason I win the trimmed sharp looking card and not the one that’s not altered. There’s a reason the fraudsters don’t sell it as trimmed. If it had the same value, why lie? It establishes materiality.

What's material for raw does not translate any more to slabbed. This is not hard to understand. It is not a valid proof, it is proof of a different proposition.