Helmar cards

[rjackson44]

+2 totaly false

[rjackson44]

Thank you everyone that’s what makes net 54 fun..im gonna get some cabinets for my office.No big deal

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

This statement is false.

Originally Posted by jingram058

+1. That's totally false.

Originally Posted by rjackson44

+2 totaly false

The person who makes them is a member on here. He has made a lot of "Vintage" cards with no dates. He quit posting on here because so many members were calling him out for exactly that.

Has he changed that aspect? I have no idea as I just make my own custom cards. If he has awesome. I know I looked at the auction page from his website and it didn't take long to find a card he was selling that looked vintage without any type of modern date on it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The person who makes them is a member on here. He has made a lot of "Vintage" cards with no dates. He quit posting on here because so many members were calling him out for exactly that.

Has he changed that aspect? I have no idea as I just make my own custom cards. If he has awesome. I know I looked at the auction page from his website and it didn't take long to find a card he was selling that looked vintage without any type of modern date on it.

I cannot imagine how absolutely stupid one has to be to believe these cards which are not reprints whatsoever and on modern stock and sold as modern cards with an art style different from period cards are real vintage items. At some point, morons are responsible for being stupid.

These cards are obviously not meant to intentionally deceive, and claiming they are is a dishonest lie.

I have never bought a Helmar and will never.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I cannot imagine how absolutely stupid one has to be to believe these cards which are not reprints whatsoever and on modern stock and sold as modern cards with an art style different from period cards are real vintage items. At some point, morons are responsible for being stupid.

These cards are obviously not meant to intentionally deceive, and claiming they are is a dishonest lie.

I have never bought a Helmar and will never.

I 100% agree on the bold part but come on they look more real than 99% of the cards pictured in the "Look out for ----- card" on eBay threads. Better yet the is this rookie Mantle real? threads.

EDIT: To add I do not in any way think the guy making the cards is trying to deceive anyone. It is others who buy his cards because some of them are not dated.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I 100% agree on the bold part but come on they look more real than 99% of the cards pictured in the "Look out for ----- card" on eBay threads. Better yet the is this rookie Mantle real? threads.

EDIT: To add I do not in any way think the guy making the cards is trying to deceive anyone. It is others who buy his cards because some of them are not dated.

I don't know why you're quoting post 39 and complaining about the seller if you agree with the statement made, as you say here in your edit.

Which Helmar card takes more than a second glance to tell is not from c. 1888-1952?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don't know why you're quoting post 39 and complaining about the seller if you agree with the statement made, as you say here in your edit.

Which Helmar card takes more than a second glance to tell is not from c. 1888-1952?

Quoted because not all their cards are dated.

Sadly not everyone is the absolute expert on cards you are. I am sure the exact same people than need to know if the rookie Mantles are real. Same for those listings about eBay counterfeit cards on eBay. There are some people that obviously can't tell even horrible fakes from real let alone modern cards using a vintage name.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Quoted because not all their cards are dated.

Sadly not everyone is the absolute expert on cards you are. I am sure the exact same people than need to know if the rookie Mantles are real. Same for those listings about eBay counterfeit cards on eBay. There are some people that obviously can't tell even horrible fakes from real let alone modern cards using a vintage name.

One does not need to be an expert in order to tell the incredibly obvious. When has Helmar reprinted a real card? When has Helmar made a card that could reasonably be mistaken for a real card? They change the designs a bit, add features not on original cards, the art style is completely different from any real set of the period, they look nothing like a real one whatsoever.

I went on their site for a few minutes and poked around for the closest card I could find to a real one. Can you tell the difference between these two? Do I need to identify which is which? Do you think any person of sound mind could possibly not tell the difference? I pray people are not genuinely this stupid.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by G1911

I cannot imagine how absolutely stupid one has to be to believe these cards which are not reprints whatsoever and on modern stock and sold as modern cards with an art style different from period cards are real vintage items. At some point, morons are responsible for being stupid.

These cards are obviously not meant to intentionally deceive, and claiming they are is a dishonest lie.

I have never bought a Helmar and will never.

Why are they illegally using images of deceased players and making it look old timey with no dates.

They don't even brew beer, it's made up to sell Laser printed cards.they took the original helmer tobacco name to confuse people

People question if they are period.


How the actual F am I lying?

It's plain as the nose on your face. Maybe not to astute n54ers, but your average person could think they are buying a helmar tobacco card.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Why are they illegally using images of deceased players and making it look old timey with no dates.

They don't even brew beer, it's made up to sell Laser printed cards.they took the original helmer tobacco name to confuse people

People question if they are period.


How the actual F am I lying?

It's plain as the nose on your face. Maybe not to astute n54ers, but your average person could think they are buying a helmar tobacco card.

You're lying because you are making a blatantly false claim that any reasonable person would know is false. The cards are absolutely not meant to deceive. Look at their site and listings for 5 seconds. There is no chicanery or dishonesty. Even a complete moron can separate these in 1 second from 'real' cards. They make no secret whatsoever they are modern creations, in fact they do the opposite of pretend they are period.

They don't even brew beer; it's a fake brand for a design. Clue #1,000 that's it is not from 1910? Duh.

This is not difficult to figure out. As always we have a couple people bullshitting with a clearly false narrative

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

You're lying because you are making a blatantly false claim that any reasonable person would know is false. The cards are absolutely not meant to deceive. Look at their site and listings for 5 seconds. There is no chicanery or dishonesty. Even a complete moron can separate these in 1 second from 'real' cards. They make no secret whatsoever they are modern creations, in fact they do the opposite of pretend they are period.

They don't even brew beer; it's a fake brand for a design. Clue #1,000 that's it is not from 1910? Duh.

This is not difficult to figure out. As always we have a couple people bullshitting with a clearly false narrative

Yes but you are never wrong.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Yes but you are never wrong.

Feel free to point out any claim to fact that is false. Go ahead.

[Phil68]

While I cannot speak for anyone else, in 10 years of sales I, personally, have had 2 people purchase cards that they thought were vintage. Both received immadiate refunds and were novice collectors that thought they could purchase a "1922" Rogers Hornsby, for example, for 23.00.
To answer the copyrights, I own or license my images and many are simply out of copyright. To date, more than two dozen families of players have responded with joy and many receive free copies. Some have even provided signatures for use on my cards that are seemingly impossible to find.
My cards are original paintings or colorized images--depending on the era and vibe I am trying to evoke.
Starting in 2022, copyrights and dates are listed on the reverses of most cards. Some just look terrible with the type on the reverse, so I use out of copyright reverses or make them entirely different artwork.
Some people love art cards, some hate them. Just like I won't consider buying any Mickey Mantle cards after 1961...to me, he looks bloated and on the decline. It's personal taste. No deception is ever intended.
Believe me on this; if I wanted to be deceptive, I could make a card that nobody could tell the difference. Frankly, simply making a countefeit card would be much easier than what I do. I have no desire to spend my time doing that because my motivation has always been "something new and interesting".
A miniscule amount of collectors can afford ANY Mantle or Ruth card. They can afford mine and enjoy them. It's collecting in it's pure form.
Remember, they cards we cherish are, at the end of the day, ephemera.
I also would like to note that all substrates we use in assembly are vintage and pre-date 1956.
I will speak for Charles Mandel on this; that man has NEVER tried to deceive anyone. He is a pure art guy. He's passionate about his craft. We love what we do and are grateful enough people like it that we can afford to do it.

Finally, I DO brew my own beer! Lol. All of the Beers and Ales we refer to on our cards actually exist. Some don't taste too good, but I'm learning. My Summer Brew wound up tasting like Cherry Wheat and the Ruby Ale is almost too strong, Lol.

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

They don't even brew beer, it's made up to sell Laser printed cards.

I don't want to get sucked into the debate too deeply as I see both sides (though I am firmly in the pro-Helmar camp), however I felt the need to clarify that yes they used to brew beer back in the early 2000's out of Michigan. They started as a beer and potato chip company and included cards in the packages of chips and used baseball images on the beer.

[Jay Wolt]

& besides Beer, they made snacks too!
Here's an unopened bag that's on ebay (not mine)

[jingram058]

This might provide some clarification:

"Since 2005, Helmar Brewing Co., headquartered in the Detroit, Michigan area, has been owned by Charles Mandel. Helmar is an old brand name from the early 1900s. Mandel purchased the rights to the name, and for the past 18 years has included limited-production cards as premiums with purchases of micro-brew beer, potato chips, and snack items. A staff of 7 produces the cards, including Mandel himself, and 5 artists. The cards are produced using vintage printing, ink and art techniques. They are sought after by modern collectors due to their high-quality, and command high resale value.

Banty Red Tobacco & Ale Co., operating out of Grayslake, Illinois, is under the ownership of Phil Apostle, a former collector turned manufacturer. Apostle sold a fortune in baseball cards and memorabilia in order to fulfill his dream of producing his own cards. After selling his own collection, he acquired an extensive collection of photographic negatives of ballplayers from the "golden era" of baseball. These cards are made by hand in very limited numbers, most only 1 or 2 cards each. With photographic imagery not found on any other cards, and in high quality, they sell immediately upon issue, often in the hundreds of dollars."

There is no intent to deceive, at least as far a card production is concerned, even though they may be labeled as t206 or whatever; that just refers to the size of the cards for reference and comparison purposes to genuine vintage cards. Anyone with any knowledge of vintage cards will know that these are cards have never before been issued before. The ageing, rounded corners, and scuff marks are all in the spirit of making them look and feel old. But they are what they are. They fill a niche in the hobby; a way to get some old-looking cards without necessarily going to the poor house. I don't believe I have ever seen a graded example of even one of these cards. That's not what they are about, either. They are not for everyone. But if you are into old-time baseball, they can be quite interesting.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

I don't want to get sucked into the debate too deeply as I see both sides (though I am firmly in the pro-Helmar camp), however I felt the need to clarify that yes they used to brew beer back in the early 2000's out of Michigan. They started as a beer and potato chip company and included cards in the packages of chips and used baseball images on the beer.

If those are yours feel free to look at them, they are created by Michigan Brewing Company, a company since out of business that did small subcontracted runs of decorative label items. Somewhat like the days of Billy beer.

Helmar was never a brewer, nor need they have much distribution if any in my knowledge. I live a couple miles from the home Helmar used as their business address and can say I never once saw any of these products. This is why you will never see either with a price tag. They were extremely limited marketing items to build the brand of cards, not the other way around.

It is fine to like them, but disingenuous to represent as true history that this was the original distribution method. This has been discussed over the years very early on.

[JustinD]

I think also some of the not made to deceive folks are relying a ton on current day (which I am happy and excepting of when dated) and not the numerous early Helmar designs and listing practices like the legendary Cap Anson Padlock threads that fooled quite a few on this site as I remember...