1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

[theshowandme]

Kudos to all the collectors here on Net54 who have been able to add one of these cards to their collection.

My hope is that the Ruth pops up in the LOTG Fall 2023 wins thread. Wouldn't that be something?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

Dan,

It's a free country. Spend the way you want. Not ashamed of the truth.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Dan,

It's a free country. Spend the way you want. Not ashamed of the truth.

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

Oh, Thank You! Thank You! Thank you!

I was actually hoping that would come up in this thread.

I confirmed it with a Waner relative that was Paul Waner.

Happy Holidays!

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

Considering Brian originally aired his views in 2004, I think that is an unfounded and unfair comment.

[ullmandds]

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

Pete,

Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays.

The 1916 Herpolsheimer cards are real. The "1921", which I have handled at a show are NOT. Not a back stamp like a strip card in the production.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Pete,

Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays.

The 1916 Herpolsheimer cards are real. The "1921", which I have handled at a show are NOT. Not a back stamp like a strip card in the production.

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

Pete,

Not properly graded by PSA. Oh, wait.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

How dare you, it should be a 6!

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Considering Brian originally aired his views in 2004, I think that is an unfounded and unfair comment.

I could not disagree more. He admitted that he posted to discourage bidding. He made feeble attempts to say "bid as you wish" while stating multiple--multiple--times not that he believed the cards to be fakes, but as a matter of fact they were fakes. Not just 19 years ago-- but in the weeks during an ongoing auction, when he himself chose to revive the idiocy. He did not couch his remarks in terms of his opinion; in fact, he has no independent opinion, but instead relies exclusively on a single encounter from nearly 20 years ago. Only now does he offer the BS additional remarks that the design is inferior and that the card must be fake because a real one would have included the advertiser's street address. Absurd nonsense. And still doubling down, rather than admit he might be, could in the realm of possibility, be wrong.

I will not do business with him again.

[molenick]

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

[RCMcKenzie]

The market has spoken. I'm not following why he has to conform. His questions prompted the research that cleared up many questions about the cards' origins. I don't see anyone else agreeing with him. I would think Al and his sellers are overjoyed with the end results. I did bid, but did not win any. I already have a nice e121 Jack Graney that I paid $40 for. Am I allowed to say, "I already have the Jack Graney and like the American Caramel backs better."?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

The market has spoken. I'm not following why he has to conform. His questions prompted the research that cleared up many questions about the cards' origins. I don't see anyone else agreeing with him. I would think Al and his sellers are overjoyed with the end results. I did bid, but did not win any. I already have a nice e121 Jack Graney that I paid $40 for. Am I allowed to say, "I already have the Jack Graney and like the
American Caramel backs better."?

I love your last statement.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

[RCMcKenzie]

That's why I was asking him earlier in this thread if he knew something we don't. Like he and his cousin watched his cousin's stepdad make these in the 70's. People did make repros in the 70's. I no longer am concerned about it and he is free to believe what he wants.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

Michael,

Forgive me, but I am getting carpal tunnel from LOL! Not messing with you, but HIGHLY enjoying this thread.

I met the dealer in May 1999 and he told me with his hand going over the cards that they were not real and made in the 1970's. I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era, but I digress.

On my uncle, I simply mentioned him because of complete disclosure on my side.

To follow up on your one paragraph:

"I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud."

Right now, it is a printer by trade and not a computer printer. As time goes on old (the type of paper) will meet up with the new/evolving with Artificial Intelligence. And in some auctions, Love of the Game not included, there will be shill bidding to boot.

Both of the Davenports I have from 1921 (Holsum Bread and Standard Biscuit) are original. The only thing about the 1970's Herpolsheimer is that it is possible that the printer who made the cards was inspired by ad border design and updated to disco floor.

Now, to converse with your subconscious in brackets. There are always two sides to a matter.

I'm entertained, but not buying it or the "1921" (not) Herpolsheimer's cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

LOL, ANYBODY with a library card can get the proper paper. Thing is new printing on old paper is very easy to see if you know what to look for. For complete disclosure I know a little more than the average person about printing.

Don't get me wrong I know for a fact there are a ton of amazing counterfeits out there. Take any picture to any printer and they can make as many perfect copies as you want. There is NO reason this can't just as easily be done with simple baseball cards. Now it actually happening is a very rare thing for a LOT of reasons.