1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

No problem, Rob. If you are bidding on them, best of luck. As I mentioned earlier, the only I even considered was the Davenport to go with my two real Davenports. Still, with other auctions and the holidays, I have better uses for my funds. I still might bid on something tonight non-Herpolsheimer.

Happy Holidays,

Brian

[Snapolit1]

Brian - maybe you explained this before, just curious. Is you position:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

(b) the series never existed and therefore all the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are fantasy cards

(c) there was a series that existed and could be real cards out there, but believe these are counterfeit because they are the same ones I saw at a show and some guy told me about them, or

(d) something else

Genuinely wondering.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Brian - maybe you explained this before, just curious. Is you position:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

(b) the series never existed and therefore all the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are fantasy cards

(c) there was a series that existed and could be real cards out there, but believe these are counterfeit because they are the same ones I saw at a show and some guy told me about them, or

(d) something else

Genuinely wondering.

Steve,

I understand:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

[calvindog]

This thread has a Linus Van Pelt/The Great Pumpkin vibe to it. And lots of pissed off Sally Browns.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This thread has a Linus Van Pelt/The Great Pumpkin vibe to it. And lots of pissed off Sally Browns.

Actually, I was thinking it has some good educational value with a large dose of Kyrie Irving.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This thread has a Linus Van Pelt/The Great Pumpkin vibe to it. And lots of pissed off Sally Browns.

LOL!

PLEASE forgive me for this idea.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use that in court one day. I guarantee it will be quoted by other lawyers for decades and centuries to come.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL!

You keep using that word…

[Snapolit1]

Thanks. Have a great weekend. Appreciate your views always.

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Steve,
I understand:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

[theshowandme]

Kudos to all the collectors here on Net54 who have been able to add one of these cards to their collection.

My hope is that the Ruth pops up in the LOTG Fall 2023 wins thread. Wouldn't that be something?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

Dan,

It's a free country. Spend the way you want. Not ashamed of the truth.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Dan,

It's a free country. Spend the way you want. Not ashamed of the truth.

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

Oh, Thank You! Thank You! Thank you!

I was actually hoping that would come up in this thread.

I confirmed it with a Waner relative that was Paul Waner.

Happy Holidays!

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

Considering Brian originally aired his views in 2004, I think that is an unfounded and unfair comment.

[ullmandds]

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

Pete,

Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays.

The 1916 Herpolsheimer cards are real. The "1921", which I have handled at a show are NOT. Not a back stamp like a strip card in the production.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Considering Brian originally aired his views in 2004, I think that is an unfounded and unfair comment.

I could not disagree more. He admitted that he posted to discourage bidding. He made feeble attempts to say "bid as you wish" while stating multiple--multiple--times not that he believed the cards to be fakes, but as a matter of fact they were fakes. Not just 19 years ago-- but in the weeks during an ongoing auction, when he himself chose to revive the idiocy. He did not couch his remarks in terms of his opinion; in fact, he has no independent opinion, but instead relies exclusively on a single encounter from nearly 20 years ago. Only now does he offer the BS additional remarks that the design is inferior and that the card must be fake because a real one would have included the advertiser's street address. Absurd nonsense. And still doubling down, rather than admit he might be, could in the realm of possibility, be wrong.

I will not do business with him again.

[molenick]

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

[RCMcKenzie]

The market has spoken. I'm not following why he has to conform. His questions prompted the research that cleared up many questions about the cards' origins. I don't see anyone else agreeing with him. I would think Al and his sellers are overjoyed with the end results. I did bid, but did not win any. I already have a nice e121 Jack Graney that I paid $40 for. Am I allowed to say, "I already have the Jack Graney and like the American Caramel backs better."?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.