1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Steve D]

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

Now that is just silly. Everyone knows aliens have not arrived on Earth yet. My inside source says it is a family of Bigfoot operating out of Oregon. Supposedly they have put enough high end counterfeit cards into the hobby they would sink a large boat.

[Brian Van Horn]

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

Doesn’t primary source evidence contradict your claims?

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

So, despite the fact that someone found an ad from Herpolsheimer's from 1921 for the exact set of cards that have been labeled by PSA as 1921 Herpolsheimer's you still think the cards are fake because a dealer in 1999 said the cards were from the 1970s?

And that even if the dealer was somehow correct about those cards, you think that the cards discovered in 2019 and the PSA 6 Collins are also fake, even though those were not among the group of cards that the dealer said were fake?

[hcv123]

GREAT detective work!

If the debate doesn't end here, I'm just not sure what I'm left to think Brian. I don't know you well. We've done a couple of successful transactions and had some good communication. After seeing the original advertisements from 1921 for the Herpolsheimer cards, is it still your opinion they are not legit?

[JollyElm]

Question:
Is the claim that none of these cards ever existed, or is the claim that they do/did exist, but the ones being discussed are themselves fake?

It's an important logical point for anyone like me who has come to the thread in media res.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by hcv123

GREAT detective work!

If the debate doesn't end here, I'm just not sure what I'm left to think.

+1

I’m not a “card guy” but I was alerted to Steve’s find in today’s email from LOTG. Speaking of love…I love it when I or anyone else can solve a mystery. For me, the history and stories of what we collect is what it’s all about.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

All due respect Brian, that ad that Steve provided, thank you Steve, to me supports authenticity, unless of course the ad is fake. And while I'm not well versed on printing techniques and it may not be difficult but how does one fake bleed through on cards? The other thing that strikes me is the same "second floor" mention in both the ad and the card backs, pretty consistent imo.
Now of course the forger of the 70's may have found this ad and chosen it as a template for his craft but I find that implausible, I don't know what a forged Herp common was worth in the 70's but I would posit the "great forgery" wasn't very profitable at the time.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ne...50D737BB8BF039

From Genealogy Bank

We're sorry, we can't find this page.
Still have questions? Please visit our FAQ to learn more.

[Steve D]

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

If I may trouble you for a response to my PM after my last post.

[Brian Van Horn]

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

Really? This is getting absurd. Can you not just admit that you are wrong?

Do you really think that Hepolsheimer is advertising American Caramel cards, without even naming them?

The 1916 ad does not picture their backs either.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them, especially if the cards were being done by an "advertising" company.

Steve

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Steve D

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them, especially if the cards were being done by an "advertising company".

Steve

Thanks so much for finding them Steve, and for pointing me to that site. I was able to finally find another 1916 advertiser of Mendelsohn cards using that site. I am happy to be wrong about my earlier assessment that an ad would not likely appear. Muchas gracias.

[G1911]

This is some desperate straw clutching. This narrative was illogical and nonsensical from the start, it is indefensible now. This is absurdly stupid lol

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them.

Steve

Steve,

It's a possibility, but more likely the two variables of the 1921 series of eighty were sold on site. Why miss an advertising opportunity in the second link after the season began?

[robertsmithnocure]

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

No problem, Rob. If you are bidding on them, best of luck. As I mentioned earlier, the only I even considered was the Davenport to go with my two real Davenports. Still, with other auctions and the holidays, I have better uses for my funds. I still might bid on something tonight non-Herpolsheimer.

Happy Holidays,

Brian

[Snapolit1]

Brian - maybe you explained this before, just curious. Is you position:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

(b) the series never existed and therefore all the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are fantasy cards

(c) there was a series that existed and could be real cards out there, but believe these are counterfeit because they are the same ones I saw at a show and some guy told me about them, or

(d) something else

Genuinely wondering.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Brian - maybe you explained this before, just curious. Is you position:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

(b) the series never existed and therefore all the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are fantasy cards

(c) there was a series that existed and could be real cards out there, but believe these are counterfeit because they are the same ones I saw at a show and some guy told me about them, or

(d) something else

Genuinely wondering.

Steve,

I understand:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.