1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Steve D]

For those who worry about the lack of an address for Herpolsheimer's on the cards, here are two postcards currently on ebay:

The store was in the heart of Grand Rapids, right next to the Kent County civil war monument that was erected in 1885.

Also, as was pointed out earlier, their advertisements did not include their address. I even looked up the Grand Rapids city directory for 1922 on ancestry.com. It has a Herpolsheimers advertisement on page 63, and it does not have their address on it.




Steve

[Steve D]

Here's a postcard for Herpolsheimer's, also on ebay; it was postmarked in 1909:



Steve

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

For those who worry about the lack of an address for Herpolsheimer's on the cards, here are two postcards currently on ebay:

The store was in the heart of Grand Rapids, right next to the Kent County civil war monument that was erected in 1885.

Also, as was pointed out earlier, their advertisements did not include their address. I even looked up the Grand Rapids city directory for 1922 on ancestry.com. It has a Herpolsheimers advertisement on page 63, and it does not have their address on it.




Steve

Steve,

From page 113 on the Grand Rapids 1922 city directory:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...08085&seq=1131

Monroe and Ottawa Avs (the way Aves is abbreviated on page)

For a population two years beyond 1920's census count of 137,634 it would have been a big help in advertising:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Rapids,_Michigan

[molenick]

I think we have a case of confirmation bias (the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories).

Brian sincerely believes the cards to be fake based on a dealer telling him they were. The dealer did not say what aspect of the cards made them fake, he just said they were.

So the answer to why some cards were first seen in 1999, then sold on eBay in 2004, and then a new set of cards (with different pencil markings on the back) appeared in 2019 and are being sold in 2023 is that it is a "nice cycle" for committing fraud along with a prediction that more cards will appear on the same schedule.

There is nothing inherently "nice" about this cycle. To me it is a random cycle that makes sense for very obscure cards. The appearance of yet another card (the PSA 6 Collins) is answered by questioning why PSA incorrectly labelled it an E121, not by saying the card is not real.

The back design being "inferior" somehow supports them being fake, although it is not stated what is inferior. Is it that the border is less ornate than on the Holsum Bread cards? Well, I prefer a plainer border, so I say the back design is superior. And it is certainly superior to blank-backed and stamp-backed cards, none of which Brian is claiming are fake.

I am still unclear how the lack of an address on the back proves the cards are fake except that it would have been a "courtesy" for Herpolsheimer's to include it.

One could also say the address not being on the back supports them being real because Herpolsheimer's often did not use their address in advertisements, earlier Herpolsheimer's cards did not use an address, some other department store-backed cards did not use an address, and why would an address be needed for a massive store located in the heart of the city where people had been shopping for years.

The fact that the cards are in different conditions is somehow also evidence of them being fake. Even though almost every "find" (except Black Swamp) consists of cards in different conditions. So is every find of multi-condition cards now suspect?

Isn't the simpler answer that the original dealer assumed they were fake because he had never seen cards with this back before? And that instead of thinking he had found uncatalogued cards, he thought, these cards are not catalogued so they are not real?

[Brian Van Horn]

Michael,

The person who put the price on the cards-not saying the dealer-knew they were false.

I also direct your attention to the advertisement border design. This was a knockoff of Holsum Bread, but a cheap one. It doesn't look like a pattern from the 1920s, but an imitation for the 1970s.

Sorry, the cards are fakes and in the case of fakes to help the con they need to be in various stages of use to help with sales.

First, I saw them in May 1999 and had an honest. Then the same group hit eBay in 2004. A "new" group came to attention in 2019. Waiting for the next group of this fraud in 2034. The fifteen year rule so everyone forgets. 2004, 2019, 2034.

[robertsmithnocure]

I see quite a few familiar and well-respected names on this thread who are adamant that these cards are real, including several who are very familiar with the E121 set and its variants.

Besides Brian and the dealer that he originally spoke with, are there any knowledgeable collectors who feel that these are fakes?

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Michael,

The person who put the price on the cards-not saying the dealer-knew they were false.

I also direct your attention to the advertisement border design. This was a knockoff of Holsum Bread, but a cheap one. It doesn't look like a pattern from the 1920s, but an imitation for the 1970s.

Sorry, the cards are fakes and in the case of fakes to help the con they need to be in various stages of use to help with sales.

First, I saw them in May 1999 and had an honest. Then the same group hit eBay in 2004. A "new" group came to attention in 2019. Waiting for the next group of this fraud in 2034. The fifteen year rule so everyone forgets. 2004, 2019, 2034.

Okay. I guess this is one of those threads where no one is going to change anyone's mind.

But to summarize:

You think they are fake because the dealer thought they were fake. And the dealer thought they were fake because someone had written prices on the back. And this applies to cards found later without prices on the back which neither you or the dealer has seen in person. And to the PSA 6 Collins which doesn't seem like it was from either find.

I am not an expert on design so I cannot state whether the Herpsolsheimer's borders look more 70s than 20s. But I disagree that cheap is the same as less ornate. If they wanted to be cheap, why have a border at all? Many similar cards have no border and are deemed to be real.

We disagree on the whether the condition is relevant. You are saying that the condition varies because it is more convincing of an actual find. I am saying the condition varies because it is an actual find. I don't think there is a way to prove either one of these to the other person's satisfaction.

I am not aware of a 15-year rule for release of fraudulent cards. Is that a known span of time that has happened for other card frauds? If so it is not a very good rule, because no one forgot!

In fact, the 2004 sale is specifically mentioned by LOTG in their description for the Babe Ruth card (and for several other cards).

[Brian Van Horn]

Michael,

I agree we agree we disagree. There are now more variables on agree in the last sentence than "Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh" to be produced by possibly 2034 with a Herpolsheimer back. Oh, the market value! Mostly by way of manure. Still, there is now the variable of Artificial Intelligence, a person working as a printer and that person's access to the proper paper from the time to put on the fraud not only on the "latter" Herpolsheimer set, but on other yet to be discovered frauds.....err.....umm.....finds. Oh, what the future holds for collecting. Yikes. My delivery of honesty in a completely different way than the dealer in May 1999. It can be possible that it was simply his honesty that delayed the "discovery" (LOL to the reference) in 2004.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Michael,

I also direct your attention to the advertisement border design. This was a knockoff of Holsum Bread, but a cheap one. It doesn't look like a pattern from the 1920s, but an imitation for the 1970s.

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jggames

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

Thank you for the link. That is some beautiful artwork pictured.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Thank you for the link. That is some beautiful artwork pictured.

It certainly is.

I was going to post that the e121 cards were typographed.


As far as faking offset transfers, it's not easy. If you were newly typographing a set of cards, making offset transfers while the cards were still wet would be very easy.

There are exceptions, some inks may never completely dry. And some are more susceptible to chemical alteration.
Like the vegetable oil based inks many magazines are printed with today. They've improved, but SI from around the time they switched were easily damaged by handling them.

And at least one formulation of ink used in the 1870's-80's can leave a transfer from weight placed on it during shipping.

Generally though, the inks were well formulated to dry well and quickly, and don't leave transfers post factory.

[frankbmd]

Does a Sovereign Reverse Have an Open Border?

With such a fine collection of borders it is a shame that Lanston went out of business along with their Monotype Composition Casters et al.
Now we have to deal with the issue of open borders.



Indeed it does not have an open border.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by jggames

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

Jason,

6M434N I would agree with about the Holsum Bread.

Now, the 6 Pt. 635N; Also, 6M635N is close, but....and leaves me with one question of course......with the also in the reference, was what was the variable between designs?

I apologize, but I was told these were made in the 1970's by the dealer (told doesn't mean he made them) and the one on the back of the "1921" still looks like the design of a disco floor or even some coffee tables from the 1970's which may have been the inspiration for the design.

[Brian Van Horn]

Jason,

Can I direct your attention to the synopsis in the white of the website below the page you offered in your information?


https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

"A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s."

I apologize, but this paragraph eliminates the design.