1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Leon]

At first I thought they weren't real. Then I did, and still do.

Why would you mention someone told you they weren't real, all those years ago, in this thread? Slow day?


And I guess since you said above "Still overjoyed to not bid on the lots." you think they aren't real. LOL

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Not trying to embarrass Leon, but just pointing out history of the two posts. The first has him mentioning.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=herpolsheimer

10/26/2004

It was 12/24/2004 he disputed me on it being real.

[nolemmings]

The cards are real. They are neither fantasy nor counterfeit.

As Al mentioned in the write up, there was much upheaval at Herpolsheimer’s in 1920-21, as the grandfather died and the father who ran the store died unexpectedly not long thereafter. The business did not pass to the oldest son, who had worked there unremarkably, and the most experienced or capable management employee resigned because of differences with that oldest son. The son next in line was only 19 when his dad died, so technical management went to the widow, and as a result the former employee came back as general manager, with #2 son taking the reins in 1921 and oldest son shown the door around the end of 1921 (he would later sue over his inheritance). No doubt all of this maneuvering and various family tussles affected promotional and advertising plans.

I will go out on a limb a little and say that any future finds of this set will number in the dozens of cards, as was the case with the first group offered and now the one in LOTG. I say this because Herpolsheimers is the only advertiser of these 1920-21 cards that did business as a department store. The others were various bread/bakery shops or confectioner/candy makers that likely meted out the cards one per unit. Unlike what happened in 1916, when Herpolsheimer distributed its cards in series of 20 cards per/week, here the cards are unnumbered and “series” would not have made much sense. I suspect that they flat out sold them either as an entire set or in groups of several cards, rather than adding them as prizes to a store purchase. I also would not be surprised if the original owner of the cards in the Band-Aid find had a sibling or two with whom he shared the cards at first, with the others being less carefully kept over the years and now lost (although that is obviously just a wild guess). Again, however, it appears whatever the distribution plan, it was not in place very long.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The cards are real. They are neither fantasy nor counterfeit.

As Al mentioned in the write up, there was much upheaval at Herpolsheimer’s in 1920-21, as the grandfather died and the father who ran the store died unexpectedly not long thereafter. The business did not pass to the oldest son, who had worked there unremarkably, and the most experienced or capable management employee resigned because of differences with that oldest son. The son next in line was only 19 when his dad died, so technical management went to the widow, and as a result the former employee came back as general manager, with #2 son taking the reins in 1921 and oldest son shown the door around the end of 1921 (he would later sue over his inheritance). No doubt all of this maneuvering and various family tussles affected promotional and advertising plans.

I will go out on a limb a little and say that any future finds of this set will number in the dozens of cards, as was the case with the first group offered and now the one in LOTG. I say this because Herpolsheimers is the only advertiser of these 1920-21 cards that did business as a department store. The others were various bread/bakery shops or confectioner/candy makers that likely meted out the cards one per unit. Unlike what happened in 1916, when Herpolsheimer distributed its cards in series of 20 cards per/week, here the cards are unnumbered and “series” would not have made much sense. I suspect that they flat out sold them either as an entire set or in groups of several cards, rather than adding them as prizes to a store purchase. I also would not be surprised if the original owner of the cards in the Band-Aid find had a sibling or two with whom he shared the cards at first, with the others being less carefully kept over the years and now lost (although that is obviously just a wild guess). Again, however, it appears whatever the distribution plan, it was not in place very long.

Todd,

I confidently disagree. They are fakes.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Todd,

I confidently disagree. They are fakes.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

You may disagree all you want, confidently or otherwise. I am happy you are not bidding.

I have owned and examined one of these from the first find. Others here have owned and/or examined them. To my knowledge, no one here or anywhere other than you and your "dealer" from all those years ago seems to say otherwise. You offer no explanation as to what is off about them, only that this source apparently would not have had reason to lie to you. Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean he just wasn't plain wrong, because if he told you these were fakes, he was in fact wrong. Maybe he figured because some Henry Johnson and Kendig's had been faked using these same photo subjects, Herpolsheimer's must be as well, given there was no catalog listing them. Of course, those others involved cards with stamped backs, whereas these were clearly printed.

I have no idea as to the credibility of your source, and I mean no disrespect in saying this, but I have had some dealers at the National tell me with bold self-assurance some things about m101s that have made me walk away either shaking my head or chuckling. In short, they are not all experts. When it comes to obscure card issues, my attitude is to trust but verify whatever I'm told. I did that here. I have since sold my example and have no investment in the matter that could influence my opinion, and of course my opinion is of little weight anyway.

I am glad you are happy, gleeful or whatever you said about not bidding on these. Remain confident in your beliefs as you state, and I will do the same. Enjoy the Holiday.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Todd,

I confidently disagree. They are fakes.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

Hi Brian-

Curious if you could share some of your concerns about the authenticity here. Is it entirely based on comments from others?

These are outside of my collecting interest, and are likely to remain so. Ergo, I really don’t have a personal interest. But I’m always interested in learning more, particularly when it comes to better understanding potential issues around authenticity.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by raulus

Hi Brian-

Curious if you could share some of your concerns about the authenticity here. Is it entirely based on comments from others?

These are outside of my collecting interest, and are likely to remain so. Ergo, I really don’t have a personal interest. But I’m always interested in learning more, particularly when it comes to better understanding potential issues around authenticity.

The authenticity issue is twofold for me:

1.) The succinct honesty of the dealer at the show.

2.) if you're going to produce a card as real, it helps to have it similar, but inferior, in design to an actual card issue.

[nolemmings]

Please explain why it is inferior in design.

[molenick]

I am not sure how the succinct honesty of a dealer in 1999 applies to the recent find of cards.

I don't understand how the design of a card relates to whether it is real or not.

But even if that was the case, which design is inferior is clearly a matter of taste. I think they are both superior to, for example, the Gassler's American-Maid Bread design. That doesn't mean cards with a Gassler's back are not real.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by molenick

I am not sure how the succinct honesty of a dealer in 1999 applies to the recent find of cards.

I don't understand how the design of a card relates to whether it is real or not.

But even if that was the case, which design is inferior is clearly a matter of taste. I think they are both superior to, for example, the Gassler's American-Maid Bread design.

Or Haffner's, Clark's or especially the hand-stamped Henry Johnsons and Keatings (See post #7).

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

I am not sure how the succinct honesty of a dealer in 1999 applies to the recent find of cards.

I don't understand how the design of a card relates to whether it is real or not.

But even if that was the case, which design is inferior is clearly a matter of taste. I think they are both superior to, for example, the Gassler's American-Maid Bread design. That doesn't mean cards with a Gassler's back are not real.

Theory is that you take an original design and make an offtake on that.

Gassler's of course are real.