Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is an interesting hypothetical, and is nothing more than hypothetical considering (1) we don’t know if Powell had in a max bid that exceeded his last bid, and (2) it’s unlikely that Powell would have been able to bid against himself (in the complete set lot), but what happens in this situation:

Powell is high bidder on the set at $615k with a max bid placed of $640k. When the 30 minute timer on the set lot ends, Powell’s $615k bid is higher than the aggregate of the individual lots at $610. However, some of the individual lots remain open and one lot gets two more bids before it closes, pushing the aggregate to $620k. Powell has a $640k max bid placed, but his auction is closed, so his auction will not recognize the $640k max bid, which would have beat the $615k aggregate….

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's a good one. If nothing else I think that would give Heritage pretty good cover to award the lot to Powell based on an actual bid higher than the aggregate individual bids.

[Powell]

I did not put in a max bid. I waited until the lot closed and I was declared the winner. The acceptance of my bid and closing the lot was the completion of the contract. The actual performance trumps an interpretation of the “rules” as contract law makes it a deal. The deal was ratified when listed on my account as a win. That ratification was not necessary but I did double check that when I went to sleep.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Powell

I did not put in a max bid. I waited until the lot closed and I was declared the winner. The acceptance of my bid and closing the lot was the completion of the contract. The actual performance trumps an interpretation of the “rules” as contract law makes it a deal. The deal was ratified when listed on my account as a win. That ratification was not necessary but I did double check that when I went to sleep.

What if, hypothetically, one or more of the other individual lots closed at the same time as yours and they too were notified by the software (which failed to link the set and individual lots) they had won?

[molenick]

Or what if one of the individual lots closed before the set and that bidder was told they won first? Would that also be considered completion of the contract and would that person have a legal claim to the individual lot they "won".

Clearly Heritage was premature in saying anyone "won" anything until all the lots were closed.

[Johnny630]

Did heritage ever send you an invoice??? If not I'm curious why did you send them money?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Did heritage ever send you an invoice??? If not I'm curious why did you send them money?

Because he thinks this is going to help his court case. It won't. At this point, he's just being a sore loser. I suspect the kicking and screaming will continue all the way to the courtroom now. I also suspect the judge will recognize it as such.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Because he thinks this is going to help his court case. It won't. At this point, he's just being a sore loser. I suspect the kicking and screaming will continue all the way to the courtroom now. I also suspect the judge will recognize it as such.

It's not Snow you're correct. This is so silly I hope he makes peace with it and moves on he obviously has the money..... just be happy with your collection you have. Geez it's just cards.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Because he thinks this is going to help his court case. It won't. At this point, he's just being a sore loser. I suspect the kicking and screaming will continue all the way to the courtroom now. I also suspect the judge will recognize it as such.

Will be interesting to see if the wire is accepted or rejected and what that might signal to substantiate or refute in this situation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Because he thinks this is going to help his court case. It won't. At this point, he's just being a sore loser. I suspect the kicking and screaming will continue all the way to the courtroom now. I also suspect the judge will recognize it as such.

Once Heritage ships the cards around the country, rendering a claim for specific performance impractical, I don't see where this goes in court. There doesn't seem to be a damages claim here at first blush. Powell's best hope is Heritage does something now to rectify the situation it caused.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by molenick

Or what if one of the individual lots closed before the set and that bidder was told they won first? Would that also be considered completion of the contract and would that person have a legal claim to the individual lot they "won".

Clearly Heritage was premature in saying anyone "won" anything until all the lots were closed.

I don't know the timing but I am assuming that there was not continued bidding in all of the individual lots after the set lot closed, and if that's the case, it seems a fair assumption that other bidders received the same automatically generated notice as Powell.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by molenick

Or what if one of the individual lots closed before the set and that bidder was told they won first? Would that also be considered completion of the contract and would that person have a legal claim to the individual lot they "won".

Clearly Heritage was premature in saying anyone "won" anything until all the lots were closed.

Of course. Everyone was going to receive the "you won lot X" automated emails. Hence Heritage includes the warning strike given in each lot informing the bidder that winning the lot does not ensure a victory until all the chips have been counted. Someone was going to "win" and lose. That was the entire point of the warning message.

[Yoda]

At a minimum, Powell should receive a phone call from Chris Ivy today to discuss this dizzying issue. These are large sums of money involved here and Chris should in charge of trying to make it right. If Heritage accepted Powell's payment after, I guess, it was their computer that told him he had won the lot, then the contract has ben fulfilled and he is the winner of all the BG's.
In my many years in and out of the hobby, I have never seen such a boondoggle.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Powell

I did not put in a max bid. I waited until the lot closed and I was declared the winner. The acceptance of my bid and closing the lot was the completion of the contract. The actual performance trumps an interpretation of the “rules” as contract law makes it a deal. The deal was ratified when listed on my account as a win. That ratification was not necessary but I did double check that when I went to sleep.

Only a lawyer could come up with this nonsense. Just read the listing. It's extremely clear. You are being blinded by your emotions. You can't possibly be this obtuse. You won the first heat of a two heat race. But you lost the second heat.

Hopefully Heritage allows the auctions to be extended for you. But that would be a major courtesy to you if they do. But to claim (yes, by fiat) that your lot ending also halts any bidding wars that might be taking place on the other individual lots is, of course, absurd. If you want to argue that you should have been given the opportunity to continue increasing your bid amount to compete against the individual lots, then that's a more fair argument to make. But to just claim that their action suddenly ends, while they're in the midst of a bidding war, is just wishful, silly, magical thinking.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is an interesting hypothetical, and is nothing more than hypothetical considering (1) we don’t know if Powell had in a max bid that exceeded his last bid, and (2) it’s unlikely that Powell would have been able to bid against himself (in the complete set lot), but what happens in this situation:

Powell is high bidder on the set at $615k with a max bid placed of $640k. When the 30 minute timer on the set lot ends, Powell’s $615k bid is higher than the aggregate of the individual lots at $610. However, some of the individual lots remain open and one lot gets two more bids before it closes, pushing the aggregate to $620k. Powell has a $640k max bid placed, but his auction is closed, so his auction will not recognize the $640k max bid, which would have beat the $615k aggregate….

Since the lot for the set was closed, I doubt having a max bid higher than the total of the individual card lots would have mattered. That seems to be the cause of the problem - there was no link between all of the lots that would keep them all open and also indicate what the total of the individual lots was so someone bidding on the set would know what they needed to bid to be ahead (and if they could actually increase their bid if no one else was bidding on the set as well).

Someone else mentioned that the lot for the set should have had its bid automatically increase to reflect the total of the individual lots as well as everything staying open until they all closed together. Clearly none of that happened.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is an interesting hypothetical, and is nothing more than hypothetical considering (1) we don’t know if Powell had in a max bid that exceeded his last bid, and (2) it’s unlikely that Powell would have been able to bid against himself (in the complete set lot), but what happens in this situation:

Powell is high bidder on the set at $615k with a max bid placed of $640k. When the 30 minute timer on the set lot ends, Powell’s $615k bid is higher than the aggregate of the individual lots at $610. However, some of the individual lots remain open and one lot gets two more bids before it closes, pushing the aggregate to $620k. Powell has a $640k max bid placed, but his auction is closed, so his auction will not recognize the $640k max bid, which would have beat the $615k aggregate….

I can find 10 people in a 50 foot radius of my office right now that would be able to write and handle that logic in any programming language that Heritage uses. I bet it could be done in less than 8 hours.

It is insane to me that these things were not linked for a company moving hundreds of millions of dollars worth of collectibles per year.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

I can find 10 people in a 50 foot radius of my office right now that would be able to write and handle that logic in any programming language that Heritage uses. I bet it could be done in less than 8 hours.

It is insane to me that these things were not linked for a company moving hundreds of millions of dollars worth of collectibles per year.

They probably do not write their own auction software code. Most auction houses don't.