Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

[calvindog]

What’s astonishing to me is that they had a month to fix the software to at the very least make it clear who was winning with each bid: the individual lots or the whole set lot. And didn’t do a thing.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What’s astonishing to me is that they had a month to fix the software to at the very least make it clear who was winning with each bid: the individual lots or the whole set lot. And didn’t do a thing.

If the auction was the higher of the set or the aggregate of the lots, and the set closed as the winner, then it’s the winner. Period, full stop. Especially without disclosure that one option could stay open while another closed. Not only is the set the winner of it ended as the winner, but it’s fundamentally unfair to allow one of the two competing items to stay open longer than the other.

This is a big mess up. Of course Heritage did not mean or anticipate this. I expect they will do the right thing, which in my opinion is sell the set to Powell at the closing price and pay the consignor the difference between the individual lots and the final price. The winners of the individual lots will be left with nothing, which sucks, but is the correct result bc they rightfully lost the minute the entire auction closed as the high bidder

[Powell]

Thank you Ryan. I believed at the time that the set beat the individual lots or it would not have closed the lot with me as the winner. I did not think I had to do the math myself in the middle of the night and add up the 12 individual lots to confirm that I won. Thanks to astute folks on this board I now see that not only did the lot close with me as the winner the set was higher than the individual lots at the time the set closed. This is a clear case that I won the lot when the hammer went down by the rules. I went to sleep happy and excited. It was wrong to then allow continuing bids on the individual lots after the set lot closed.

[puckpaul]

They should either declare you the winner of the whole set, or re open the bidding with new rules and let it finish on its own.

I HATE the dual bidding process, it’s a terrible way to auction these sets. This should be the last one.

[t206fanatic]

i also agree Powell won the lots, but Heritage really needs to step in with substantial compensation for the individual lot winners. It's a huge screwup on a marquee set, and the pain should be commiserate.

[jayshum]

I know other auction houses have had the same type of auctions (full set vs individual lots). How have they handled closing the individual lots vs the full set lot and providing information to bidders about which is leading? Did they do the same as Heritage and just got lucky that something like this didn't happen or does other auction software handle this better than Heritage's site did?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I know other auction houses have had the same type of auctions (full set vs individual lots). How have they handled closing the individual lots vs the full set lot and providing information to bidders about which is leading? Did they do the same as Heritage and just got lucky that something like this didn't happen or does other auction software handle this better than Heritage's site did?

Mile High has done it as well. Every time you bid on either the individual lots or the full set, you get an alert on the totals of the individual lots vs. full set. And no auction has ever allowed the full set lot to end while the individual lots continued to run. Just bad software/programming.

[insidethewrapper]

How could the full set be bid any higher if Powell was the only bidder at the end ? Can you bid against yourself ? I think bids only increase against another bidder.

He should have been advised about the running total of the individual lots and then given the option to bid higher on the set or pursue some individual cards .

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

How could the full set be bid any higher if Powell was the only bidder at the end ? Can you bid against yourself ? I think bids only increase against another bidder.

He should have been advised about the running total of the individual lots and then given the option to bid higher on the set or pursue some individual cards .

Apologies if this has already been addressed, I'm late to this party :

The aggregate total of the single lots should have been treated as another bidder in the full set auction, with the time on the full set auction not ending until no bids had been placed for 30 minutes on any of the individual or full auctions.

I believe that the winner of the full set lot should be given the opportunity to bid one more time for a single bid increment above the aggregate total.

Doug "the whole thing was a bad idea from the start" Goodman

[molenick]

I don't have a solution but I am just curious.

Do we (mostly) think the set is the winner because it closed first? What if all the individual lots had closed first but the set was still open? And the individual lots were higher than the set when they all closed, but then the continued set bidding took it over the individual total? Then we would have had multiple people going to sleep thinking they had won, only to be told the next day they had lost because the set topped them.

It is a truly a horrible situation for all involved and a major mistake by Heritage. And I really don't know what the answer is. Except in retrospect saying that all the lots should have stayed open until there was no bidding on any lot for 30 minutes.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by molenick

I don't have a solution but I am just curious. Do we (mostly) think the set is the winner because it closed first? What if all the individual lots had closed first but the set was still open? And the individual lots were higher than the set when they all closed, but then the set bidding went over the individual total? Then we would have had multiple people going to sleep thinking they had won, only to be told the next day they had lost because the set topped them.

I think if all the individual lots had closed first, and total value was higher than the full set lot price at the time, we'd have the same issue here but in reverse. And then those lot winners would be in the right. But obviously that's not what happened here.

[Powell]

Originally Posted by Aaron Seefeldt

.

My position is that since the set lot closed and they involved every card and I could not bid again if I wanted to the cards were sold to me and the subsequent bids on individual lots were a nullity. The virtual hammer went down and the lots were sold. This is a strong case by itself.

Astute members of the board observed that the set price was higher than the sum of the individual lots when the set closed. This clinches it as there is no reasonable counter-position.

I have confidence that Chris, Derek and Dan whom I have worked with on many occasions will do the right thing and declare the set the winner, which I have no intention of selling and will display them publicly for the world to see and keep this great story alive for many years.

I have a 14 BG Jackson and Herzog, which I had no plans of selling but will sell them to the individual bidders with a discount for the Jackson as it’s not as nice if they wish and do my part to make lemonade out of lemons.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

If the auction was the higher of the set or the aggregate of the lots, and the set closed as the winner, then it’s the winner. Period, full stop. Especially without disclosure that one option could stay open while another closed. Not only is the set the winner of it ended as the winner, but it’s fundamentally unfair to allow one of the two competing items to stay open longer than the other.

This is a big mess up. Of course Heritage did not mean or anticipate this. I expect they will do the right thing, which in my opinion is sell the set to Powell at the closing price and pay the consignor the difference between the individual lots and the final price. The winners of the individual lots will be left with nothing, which sucks, but is the correct result bc they rightfully lost the minute the entire auction closed as the high bidder

No question. Re-doing the auction is a recipe for disaster. Heritage legally can make this result happen and I suspect they will.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

If the auction was the higher of the set or the aggregate of the lots, and the set closed as the winner, then it’s the winner. Period, full stop. Especially without disclosure that one option could stay open while another closed. Not only is the set the winner of it ended as the winner, but it’s fundamentally unfair to allow one of the two competing items to stay open longer than the other.

This is a big mess up. Of course Heritage did not mean or anticipate this. I expect they will do the right thing, which in my opinion is sell the set to Powell at the closing price and pay the consignor the difference between the individual lots and the final price. The winners of the individual lots will be left with nothing, which sucks, but is the correct result bc they rightfully lost the minute the entire auction closed as the high bidder

I respectfully disagree. Powell could have upped his bid in the extended half hour to anticipate and protect the complete set from getting outbid. The complete set received 0 bids in extended bidding similar to 6 or 7 of the individual lots which closed at the same time, including the Baker which I was high bidder on. Several of the individual lots received bids in the extended half hour which, of course, resets their timer. Most notably the Tinker & Maranville continued much later.

Heritage’s rules were listed (and still are) not once but twice in each lot. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Here is what each lot said twice:

“ Please note that this auction will list each card as an individual lot along with another listing for the complete set. If the aggregate winning bids of the twelve individual lots exceeds the high bid on the complete set, the cards will be sold to each individual winner. If the price of the set exceeds the sum of the twelve individual cards, the victory will be awarded to the high bidder for the complete set.”

[calvindog]

Aaron, the problem is as noted above. He couldn’t raise his bid on the full set lot with a ceiling bid and have it register unless someone else bid after him (but below the ceiling he had set).

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Aaron, the problem is as noted above. He couldn’t raise his bid on the full set lot with a ceiling bid and have it register unless someone else bid after him (but below the ceiling he had set).

+1.

Aaron, it’s a real shitty situation all around. But the fact that the full set closed and could not increase /add another bid, when the other lots were open and the set only wins if it’s price exceeds the aggregate, to me, is determinative.

Of course, all the lots should have stayed open until no garters lot got a bid for 30 minutes, bc Aaron could have easily been in Powell’s boat had his lot closed and he could not bid but the whole set stayed open

[calvindog]

That’s it in a nutshell. Powell was prevented from competing while the individual lots were still open.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

At least we all agree that the format was a mess to begin with.

But let’s not forget it has now advanced to the point that the individual lots have been invoiced. Also, none of HA’s rules were broken or changed… so far.

I expect they will stand by their rules as any seller with integrity would. I also sincerely hope this is a learning lesson for all auction houses/sellers in the future.

[toothcutter]

I felt like something like this would happen so i focused and picked up the Gehrig rookie. Cant believe the price i got this at.

[insidethewrapper]

In the Auction Catalog under "Conducting the Auction # 14 it states " In the event of any dispute between any bidders at an Auction, Auctioneer may at his sole discretion reoffer the lot. Auctioneer's decision and declaration of the winning Bidder shall be final and binding upon all bidders "

So Heritage can reoffer the lots if they want or declare the winners as final.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

In the Auction Catalog under "Conducting the Auction # 14 it states " In the event of any dispute between any bidders at an Auction, Auctioneer may at his sole discretion reoffer the lot. Auctioneer's decision and declaration of the winning Bidder shall be final and binding upon all bidders "

So Heritage can reoffer the lots if they want or declare the winners as final.

They already declared Powell the winner, then retracted that decision. I'm sure that authority is not addressed in their rules.

[Powell]

Aaron,

Respectfully, I did bid in extended time. My bid was accepted and I waited the full 30 minutes. I checked my account and it said I won (I lost my other bids and they were correctly identified as losers). Saturday morning I looked up my account and the set was listed as winner. I learned otherwise from this board later in the morning. The set lot ended with me as the winner, reported me as the winner and no one including me could bid on the set after I won. I’m optimistic Heritage will do the right thing. It’s not your fault and I don’t blame you. I am a processional trial lawyer and I would never let my clients get screwed by making a deal and having the rug pulled out from under them. I have had great relations with Heritage so I’m confident it won’t end up in Court but no fair minded person could say that I didn’t win the set fair and square.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the intent was to run the set against the individual lots, it seems obvious that has to assume a comparison at the same time. Heritage should have foreseen that the normal closing rules could not accomplish that, and should apologize to winners of the individual lots and award the set to Powell.

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is an analogy - the eagles are playing the Lions (Baker v Cobb). The rules state that whoever has the most points at the end of 60 minutes, wins. When the clock expires after 60 minutes, the Lions are winning 30-20. But then, for some reason, the eagles are given the chance to keep playing until either they score more than 30 points or give up; all the while, the lions are stuck in the locker room and not able to defend their victory. While I am sure there are eagles fans who would declare this legit, my gut is all other NFL fans would declare the lions the proper victor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The way it probably should have worked, off the top of my head, is the set should have remained open until all the single lots closed, and Powell then should have had an opportunity to top the total.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The way it probably should have worked, off the top of my head, is the set should have remained open until all the single lots closed, and Powell then should have had an opportunity to top the total.

But that would put Aaron in Powells current position. Aaron would have gone to bed winning the single lot and not being able to bid higher, woken up the next morning and see that he lost the lot, assuming Powell went higher on the set.