Top 3 � Most Important

robw1959 · #1 09-17-2023, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Cobb - first superstar
Ruth - the ultimate superstar
Jackie - broke color barrier

+1 Hard to argue with that, but it is tempting to put Willie Mays into the mix. Nobody drew fans like Willie, the most exciting player of his generation.

BobbyStrawberry · #2 09-17-2023, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robw1959

+1 Hard to argue with that, but it is tempting to put Willie Mays into the mix. Nobody drew fans like Willie, the most exciting player of his generation.

I would argue with it, as King Kelly was the game's first superstar, not Cobb

vthobby · #3 09-17-2023, 05:55 PM

Gehrig
Jackie
Hodges

You will not find any better gentleman of the diamond.

Ambassadors who embodied the purity of the game and played it the way it was meant to be played.

Matty begs to be on this list so he is tied with Hodges.

Eric72 · #4 09-17-2023, 06:31 PM

Christy Mathewson

Babe Ruth

Jackie Robinson

Babe and Jackie, for obvious reasons. Matty broadened the appeal beyond where it had been; he brought an air of respectability to the baseball player as a professional.

Rhotchkiss · #5 09-17-2023, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I would argue with it, as King Kelly was the game's first superstar, not Cobb

Baseball was a much more popular game when Cobb came along, as a result, I believe his influence was much greater on the general public. Just look at the popularity of baseball cards in 1909-1910 compared to earlier years or the rise of the Sporting Life and other publications that really took off after Kelly was big. Cobb was in every newspaper, he had a nickname, he was in plays, people loved and hated him and showed up in huge numbers when he played to see him or boo him. He held out and negotiated his contract, something nobody ever did before and he made being a "ball player" a more respectable career, whereas before ball players were bums who couldn't get real jobs. And, his face was all over trading tobacco, confectionary, and candy cards.

Maybe Kelley or Anson, or Lajoie or Wagner for that matter, were superstars on the field/to the people who played. To the general public, Cobb was the first superstar baseball player - which to me means he transcended the sport and thus did more for it than anyone prior.

BobbyStrawberry · #6 09-18-2023, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Baseball was a much more popular game when Cobb came along, as a result, I believe his influence was much greater on the general public. Just look at the popularity of baseball cards in 1909-1910 compared to earlier years or the rise of the Sporting Life and other publications that really took off after Kelly was big.

Totally fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Cobb was in every newspaper, he had a nickname, he was in plays, people loved and hated him and showed up in huge numbers when he played to see him or boo him.

While Kelly may not have been in as many newspapers, I believe all the rest of this applied to Kelly in his day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Maybe Kelley or Anson, or Lajoie or Wagner for that matter, were superstars on the field/to the people who played. To the general public, Cobb was the first superstar baseball player - which to me means he transcended the sport and thus did more for it than anyone prior.

To me, Jim Creighton was the first star player and Kelly the first superstar. That said, I don't fault anyone for putting Cobb on their "3 most important" list. I do believe that there should be a 19th century player on the list though. For me that would be Anson for (both good and bad) reasons others have stated.

packs · #7 09-18-2023, 11:24 AM

I would think Cobb's place is earned because there was no one like him until he arrived. Every 19th century player paled in comparison to Ty Cobb. No one had ever considered someone could be as good as Cobb was until you saw Cobb.

He was simply the best player who ever lived until Ruth hits his prime and there have been very few players of his caliber since.

BobbyStrawberry · #8 09-18-2023, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I would think Cobb's place is earned because there was no one like him until he arrived. Every 19th century player paled in comparison to Ty Cobb. No one had ever considered someone could be as good as Cobb was until you saw Cobb.

He was simply the best player who ever lived until Ruth hits his prime and there have been very few players of his caliber since.

I agree that Cobb is a top 2 player of all time. I guess that's the thing though - "most important" vs. "first superstar" vs. "greatest" are all different questions, to me at least.

packs · #9 09-18-2023, 11:40 AM

I would say that Cobb played an important role between moving away from the old game and moving toward the new game that arrived with Ruth.

Cobb is still 4th all time in WAR and 2nd in hits. If Ruth never existed Ty Cobb takes his place. That puts him in the Top 3 in my mind.

bbcard1 · #10 09-17-2023, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I would argue with it, as King Kelly was the game's first superstar, not Cobb

I came here to say that, though more in the context of Anson than Cobb. King Kelly was a fasciating player in that he was the first to transcend baseball and be a full blown celebrity.

robw1959 · #11 09-17-2023, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I came here to say that, though more in the context of Anson than Cobb. King Kelly was a fasciating player in that he was the first to transcend baseball and be a full blown celebrity.

However, Anson was a renown racist and an influential one who probably was the MLB figure most responsible for delaying integration until Jackie Robinson finally broke that barrier.

Casey2296 · #12 09-17-2023, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robw1959

However, Anson was a renown racist and an influential one who probably was the MLB figure most responsible for delaying integration until Jackie Robinson finally broke that barrier.

I think racism in baseball has been addressed, the more relevant question is how we avoid creeps like Wander Franco from having sex with minors.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 09-17-2023, 11:57 PM

I would have to list six. The first answer to almost any baseball question is Ruth. Jackie, for obvious reasons. Cobb, for obvious reasons. One not mentioned, yet, or not mentioned much, Mantle.. The personification of baseball in one of its greatest decades. An American folk hero. Clemente. Not the first Latin player, but the first great one. And finally, same concept, Ichiro.

oldjudge · #14 09-18-2023, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I think racism in baseball has been addressed, the more relevant question is how we avoid creeps like Wander Franco from having sex with minors.

To me that�s like saying: �We�ve discussed that already but wasn�t John Wilkes Booth a hell of an actor�?

Casey2296 · #15 09-18-2023, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

To me that�s like saying: �We�ve discussed that already but wasn�t John Wilkes Booth a hell of an actor�?

I'm sure my comment would be taken that way. Is there a point where racism is not the only narrative? Racisim is a horrible thing and should never be tolerated. We should recognize Anson's racism and the general Southern racism that is thanfulliy dying out. That being said, let's not be lazy and rely on old racist memes. Shouldn't we be more concerned with the bad behavior of our current sports stars no matter the color of their skin?

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