Greatness Among Us!

[robw1959]

I will always tell people to be careful when making modern player comparisons to Ruth. He was routinely batting against 450' centerfield fences. Even so, in 1921 Babe Ruth managed to hit a 500" homer in every American League ballpark he faced.

https://www.wackyexplorer.com/babe-ruth-longest-homer/

[Peter_Spaeth]

He has been in a bit of a power outage and has dropped to 3rd in hitting on Fangraphs. He is 27th currently in pitching.

[Casey2296]

I love his hunger to win, I can only hope he wears a Giants uniform next year.

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I love his hunger to win, I can only hope he wears a Giants uniform next year.

And I'm hoping he becomes a Phillie!! Regardless, it wouldn't surprise me to see him as the first $50 million/year player. Amazing!

Ruth made a peak of $80k/yr in 1930. That's equal to just over $1.4 million... TV, internet, international marking and advertising rights have changed EVERYTHING in entertainment - it's crazy!

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I will always tell people to be careful when making modern player comparisons to Ruth. He was routinely batting against 450' centerfield fences. Even so, in 1921 Babe Ruth managed to hit a 500" homer in every American League ballpark he faced.

https://www.wackyexplorer.com/babe-ruth-longest-homer/

That's amazing - the power that man could generate and with baseballs that weren't wound so tight, it's incredible.

On the flip side, Ruth wasn't facing 3-4 pitchers each night who were fresh and throwing pills at 95 - 102 mph. Think of how many starting pitchers in his era went 9 innings/game, and threw 300+ innings/yr... humans haven't devolved since that era so in pre-war and beyond, the time a lineup got to their 3rd AB in a game, in mid-season, a lot of arms were worn. Never taking away anything from the stars and greats of that era, but it was completely different.

Think of the prep between starts that pitchers go through in the modern era - and Ohtani is doing that and playing full time.... scout the pitching staff w/ film work on non-pitching days, hitting routine, then pitching recovery on start +1 days, start +2, start+ 3, etc.

Just impressive all around! Both players are absolute greats!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by CJinPA

On the flip side, Ruth wasn't facing 3-4 pitchers each night who were fresh and throwing pills at 95 - 102 mph. Think of how many starting pitchers in his era went 9 innings/game, and threw 300+ innings/yr... humans haven't devolved since that era so in pre-war and beyond, the time a lineup got to their 3rd AB in a game, in mid-season, a lot of arms were worn. Never taking away anything from the stars and greats of that era, but it was completely different!

Good points here.

A few more observations (not to take away from the Bambino, but just some real differences in the game from 100 years ago ):

Ruth only faced AL pitching. There was no interleague play (other than the WS). 8 teams in the AL? And he didn’t face his own team’s pitchers. So the number of pitchers he faced during the season was limited. I suspect he got to know most of them really well.

The league wasn’t integrated, so he was only competing against maybe half of the available talent.

Spray charts and spin rates and all the modern analytics didn’t exist, which seems to benefit pitchers today.

Of course, there are any number of factors that cut the other way as well, some of which have been outlined already.

I could go on, but obviously while we attempt to compare players from vastly different eras, it can be difficult to really feel confident in those comparisons, even when the counting stats are this similar.

[G1911]

Ohtani is a great player and I'm rooting for him, but 674 and 455 is such a meaningless cherrypick of a standard. People have been comparing current-hot-player to Babe Ruth for a century. It's never really been true. Just let Ohtani stand on his own pedestal of accomplishment instead of trying to place him as new Ruth.

[packs]

I also think it's a non-starter to compare anyone to Ruth.

Since we're talking about what was left out of the stats, it was also left out that while Ruth was hitting his home runs, he was out hitting entire teams on his own. Ohtani is not doing that and another player never will.

Ruth was the single most dominant player there will ever be. No one will ever come close.

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by G1911

Ohtani is a great player and I'm rooting for him, but 674 and 455 is such a meaningless cherrypick of a standard. People have been comparing current-hot-player to Babe Ruth for a century. It's never really been true. Just let Ohtani stand on his own pedestal of accomplishment instead of trying to place him as new Ruth.

I agree - over the long haul let Ohtani stand on his own. That said, these can understandably be seen as cherrypicked, but comparing the first 674 and 455 and seeing the similarities is interesting, no? When I saw it, I thought so. And Ruth stopped being a pitcher around his mid-20's I believe (save a few starts here and there later in his career).

I started watching MLB baseball in the late 70's so from then to now is my frame of reference. I'm not aware of anyone comparing the two-way playing abilities of Ruth with anyone. Have there been really good hitting pitchers, sure... the most impressive in my life was Ankiel and what he was able to do but that was more him becoming a position player after the yips on the mound - so not really a comparison there.

As a hitter, I can only imagine Barry Bonds as even coming close to Ruth in his ability to change a game from the offensive side (in the mid-latter part of his career while 'enhanced').... that's another conversation altogether and not worth getting into here.

btw - I love Ruth, was lucky enough to play on the same ballfields in Trenton, NJ that he did while barnstorming. So awesome those days had to be for the common baseball fan!

https://www.trentondaily.com/babe-ru...ambers-street/

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by CJinPA

I agree - over the long haul let Ohtani stand on his own. That said, these can understandably be seen as cherrypicked, but comparing the first 674 and 455 and seeing the similarities is interesting, no? When I saw it, I thought so. And Ruth stopped being a pitcher around his mid-20's I believe (save a few starts here and there later in his career).

I started watching MLB baseball in the late 70's so from then to now is my frame of reference. I'm not aware of anyone comparing the two-way playing abilities of Ruth with anyone. Have there been really good hitting pitchers, sure... the most impressive in my life was Ankiel and what he was able to do but that was more him becoming a position player after the yips on the mound - so not really a comparison there.

As a hitter, I can only imagine Barry Bonds as even coming close to Ruth in his ability to change a game from the offensive side (in the mid-latter part of his career while 'enhanced').... that's another conversation altogether and not worth getting into here.

btw - I love Ruth, was lucky enough to play on the same ballfields in Trenton, NJ that he did while barnstorming. So awesome those days had to be for the common baseball fan!

https://www.trentondaily.com/babe-ru...ambers-street/

Great stuff and well said.

[packs]

Lefty O'Doul was a pitcher turned hitter and so was Joe Wood, but no one ever says things like "Ohtani is today's Joe Wood". Why not?

[donmuth]

Originally Posted by CJinPA

On the flip side, Ruth wasn't facing 3-4 pitchers each night who were fresh and throwing pills at 95 - 102 mph. Think of how many starting pitchers in his era went 9 innings/game, and threw 300+ innings/yr... humans haven't devolved since that era so in pre-war and beyond, the time a lineup got to their 3rd AB in a game, in mid-season, a lot of arms were worn. Never taking away anything from the stars and greats of that era, but it was completely different.

This would be super interesting to research to find out how many of Ruth's HRs occurred during which plate appearance in a game, on average, and compare that to some modern sluggers. I can see a graph of it in my head. Not sure how to extract the data though. Anyone have some extra time on their hands?

[jingram058]

Yes, but don't forget, major league pitchers were just throwing wiffle-ball or slow pitch softball speed back in Ruth's day compared to the sheer multitude of Fellers, Koufaxes, and Ryan's today. Remember how I got torched with a flamethrower in an old thread attempting to contradict that idiotic BS?

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yes, but don't forget, major league pitchers were just throwing wiffle-ball or slow pitch softball speed back in Ruth's day compared to the sheer multitude of Fellers, Koufaxes, and Ryan's today. Remember how I got torched with a flamethrower in an old thread attempting to contradict that idiotic BS?

I don't agree with this, and don't know how anyone can prove it. Satchell Paige was good enough at about age 58 to throw three shutout innings in an MLB game while opposing Bill Monbouquette. Think of how dominant he must have been in his prime, which was maybe right around 1932. During that same year, 'ol Satch faced the Babe during an exhibition game. In one of those at-bats, he almost got whiplash by spinning his head around with disbelief at seeing one of his fastballs turn into a moonshot monster home run to dead centerfield. This was Ruth at the end of his career. I am fully convinced that Babe Ruth could catch up to any fastball pitched today, as well as any bender that caught too much of the plate. Ruth was the original "Natural" well before Robert Redford.

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I don't agree with this, and don't know how anyone can prove it. Satchell Paige was good enough at about age 58 to throw three shutout innings in an MLB game while opposing Bill Monbouquette. Think of how dominant he must have been in his prime, which was maybe right around 1932. During that same year, 'ol Satch faced the Babe during an exhibition game. In one of those at-bats, he almost got whiplash by spinning his head around with disbelief at seeing one of his fastballs turn into a moonshot monster home run to dead centerfield. This was Ruth at the end of his career. I am fully convinced that Babe Ruth could catch up to any fastball pitched today, as well as any bender that caught too much of the plate. Ruth was the original "Natural" well before Robert Redford.

Ruth absolutely could have caught up with the pitching velocity of today, I'd question anyone who would say otherwise. Where I think he'd be more human-like is with the guys who throw 95+ AND can throw a slider or legit changeup with the same arm angle and arm speed with a release point that mirrors the fastball. That's what todays pitchers strive for!

The game of today is analytics, and in this sense, by the hitters. They guess.. educated guesses, for sure! This is why you see even the greatest hitters of today look foolish on offspeed pitches sometimes. They weren't served the pitch they were supposed to. All according to advanced scouting, tendencies, and preferences of pitchers on the mound, game situation, etc.

This is what Ruth would be today! There is no doubt in my mind.

Two scenarios:
* Take 1927 Ruth and place him in a game today - I suspect he'd struggle! Initially, then make adjustments. It would take time.

* Take any of today's #3 SP on any team and place them in a game in 1927. They would be a top pitcher in the MLB.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yes, but don't forget, major league pitchers were just throwing wiffle-ball or slow pitch softball speed back in Ruth's day compared to the sheer multitude of Fellers, Koufaxes, and Ryan's today. Remember how I got torched with a flamethrower in an old thread attempting to contradict that idiotic BS?

Sorry; I reread your post just now, and failed to pick up on your sarcasm during my first read.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

here's another aspect nobody seems to be talking about. How much does this cost Ohtani in Free Agency? Does it increases his odds of staying with the Angels? Will other teams try and talk him out of pitching?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

here's another aspect nobody seems to be talking about. How much does this cost Ohtani in Free Agency? Does it increases his odds of staying with the Angels? Will other teams try and talk him out of pitching?

Some people think a future contract will be two-tiered--$350M for being a hitter, and then an incentive bases contract for his pitching. So if he does little pitching, it would be a far cry from the $500M he was expected last week.

As for whether or not this changes the odds that he will be with Angels is hard to tell. I think that more teams will feel they have a shot because he has become slightly more affordable, but others think the injury pushes him back to the Angels, because of the uncertainty other teams will have.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

here's another aspect nobody seems to be talking about. How much does this cost Ohtani in Free Agency? Does it increases his odds of staying with the Angels? Will other teams try and talk him out of pitching?

I think the recovery time before being able to pitch again after a second Tommy John surgery is longer than after the first one so the earliest he would be ready to pitch would be 2025. I would think he could hit before then but would probably miss at least the start of 2024 and then just be a DH for whatever part of the season he did play. It will definitely be interesting to see how much teams are willing to guarantee with so much uncertainty about when and what he will be able to contribute. If he doesn't pitch, it would seem like he could still end up with contract offers around what Aaron Judge got from the Yankees or given the uncertainty, does he have to take a short term deal then become a free agent again once he shows what he can still do?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by donmuth

This would be super interesting to research to find out how many of Ruth's HRs occurred during which plate appearance in a game, on average, and compare that to some modern sluggers. I can see a graph of it in my head. Not sure how to extract the data though. Anyone have some extra time on their hands?

Surface level:

Ruth hit .365 from the 7th-9th innings with 202 homers. He hit .355 facing a starter the 3rd time and .357 the 4th time. He hit .350 overall against relievers.

Ohtani is a career .274 hitter. He's hitting .279 in the 7th-9th. .290 facing starters for the 3rd time. .267 against relievers.

[RCMcKenzie]

I thought this thread was going to be about a net54 member.

I thought Geddy Lee was back on here posting again or something. Like a regular poster was going to be on the Tonight Show or something.


Ohtani is fun to watch when he's pitching a 2-0 game with 2 homers of his own. It is kind of a novelty act though. It's not like he's a better player than Yordan Alvarez or Kyle Tucker. Like I would not trade away Mookie Betts for him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I might trade Betts, but if you offered me Ohtani for Acuna in a situation where I would expect to have either one for many years, I would psss without hesitation.

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I might trade Betts, but if you offered me Ohtani for Acuna in a situation where I would expect to have either one for many years, I would psss without hesitation.

No offense meant by my response - your statement above is why you wouldn't be an MLB GM.

A #1-3 starting pitcher in the MLB who can throw 190-235 IP/yr are absolute GOLD!! On top of that, the player is a .275+ power bat! If the Braves could lock up Ohtani for 5 years, you bet your last $$$ that they would do a straight-up Ohtani/Acuna deal.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I will always tell people to be careful when making modern player comparisons to Ruth. He was routinely batting against 450' centerfield fences. Even so, in 1921 Babe Ruth managed to hit a 500" homer in every American League ballpark he faced.

https://www.wackyexplorer.com/babe-ruth-longest-homer/

I suppose that's true.