450 HR and counting and really not so good

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

Jim Kaat won a Gold Glove in 1969 with a fielding percentage of 0.826. I suspect fielding awards have more to do with flash than fundamentals. And, advanced analytics haven't necessarily improved the Gold Glove awards in that regard. See "Jeter, Derek."

[todeen]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Jim Kaat won a Gold Glove in 1969 with a fielding percentage of 0.826. I suspect fielding awards have more to do with flash than fundamentals. And, advanced analytics haven't necessarily improved the Gold Glove awards in that regard. See "Jeter, Derek."

Derek Jeter was still before advanced analytics took over baseball. You would want to cite an example of someone after 2005 I would presume. As an avid fan, that is roughly the year I remember new terms coming into use that I couldn't calculate or completely comprehend. But they still hadn't overtaken the old school BBWA voters who were the ones casting votes.

The change coincides with moneyball analytics that occurred in the early 2000s.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[jayshum]

Interesting that total WAR is not just oWAR + dWAR. Can anyone explain how it's calculated?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Interesting that total WAR is not just oWAR + dWAR. Can anyone explain how it's calculated?

"oWAR looks to calculate a player’s offensive contribution alone, completely removing his fielding. It does adjust for position, however, which can make a big impact. Meanwhile, dWAR compares a player’s defensive efforts to a league-average fielder, again adjusting for position.

Though oWAR and dWAR do isolate the two halves of bWAR, they cannot be summed to reach the overall figure. There are a lot of minor intangibles that are too particular to dive into here, but the basic roadblock is the positional adjustment. bWAR, oWAR, and dWAR all incorporate some sort of adjustment for position, making it possible to compare shortstops to first baseman. But because oWAR and dWAR both include an adjustment, summing them would double the magnitude of this factor as compared to bWAR."

https://www.blessyouboys.com/2019/1/...ment-bwar-fwar

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

"oWAR looks to calculate a player’s offensive contribution alone, completely removing his fielding. It does adjust for position, however, which can make a big impact. Meanwhile, dWAR compares a player’s defensive efforts to a league-average fielder, again adjusting for position.

Though oWAR and dWAR do isolate the two halves of bWAR, they cannot be summed to reach the overall figure. There are a lot of minor intangibles that are too particular to dive into here, but the basic roadblock is the positional adjustment. bWAR, oWAR, and dWAR all incorporate some sort of adjustment for position, making it possible to compare shortstops to first baseman. But because oWAR and dWAR both include an adjustment, summing them would double the magnitude of this factor as compared to bWAR."

https://www.blessyouboys.com/2019/1/...ment-bwar-fwar

Good summation. It's also the reason Mike Trout can catch 3 routine fly balls in Centerfield and his dWAR score goes up, and why Don Mattingly can scoop 3 badly thrown balls out of the dirt at 1st Base, and his dWAR score goes down.

dWAR is vicious with 1st Basemen and Right Fielders.

I think Defensive WAR is much harder to quantify then offensive WAR.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Good summation. It's also the reason Mike Trout can catch 3 routine fly balls in Centerfield and his dWAR score goes up, and why Don Mattingly can scoop 3 badly thrown balls out of the dirt at 1st Base, and his dWAR score goes down.

dWAR is vicious with 1st Basemen and Right Fielders.

I think Defensive WAR is much harder to quantify then offensive WAR.

Yeah, its extremely difficult to have a positive dWAR as a first baseman or right fielder--Keith Hernandez, who many consider to be the greatest fielding first baseman ever has a career dWAR of 1.3.

Roberto Clemente, widely considered the greatest fielding right fielder ever has a career dWAR of only 12.2. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Reggie Jackson, Tony Gwynn, Vlad Guerrero, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Paul Waner, and Bryce Harper all have negative dWAR, many of them by double digits.

And yeah, I think its harder to measure dWAR than oWAR.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by todeen

Derek Jeter was still before advanced analytics took over baseball. You would want to cite an example of someone after 2005 I would presume.

If you are going to limit it to 2005 or after, then I would cite as an example Derek Jeter, who won 4 of his 5 Gold Gloves in 2005 or later.