450 HR and counting and really not so good

[clydepepper]

.983 fielding average may have something to do with it

[mrreality68]

Had a good career not great and not HOF material.

Many great moments but a modern day Adam Dunn

And only 4 seasons I believe over 100 rbi. And 0 season with over 100 runs

[cgjackson222]

Defense matters: a list of some sluggers with low dWAR (as per baseball reference) and its effect on total WAR.

dWAR /oWAR / Total WAR

Note the similarity between Nelson Cruz and Jose Canseco.

Adam Dunn: -28.4 / 35.3 / 17.9 (462 HRs)
Gary Sheffield: -27.7 / 80.7 / 60.5 (509 HRs)
Dave Winfield: -22.7 / 74.1 / 64.2 (465 HRs)
Frank Thomas: -22.5 / 80.4 / 73.8 (521 HRs)
Manny Ramirez: -21.7 / 81.8 / 69.3 (555 HRs)
Willie McCovey: -21.6 / 72 / 64.5 (521 HRs)
David Ortiz: -20.9 / 56.7 / 55.3 (541 HRs)
Miguel Cabrera: -20.7 / 77.3 / 67.0 (507 HRs)
Prince Fielder: -20.5 / 34.1 / 23.8 (319 HRs)
Jason Giambi: -19.7 / 58.4 / 50.5 (440 HRs)
Willie Stargell: -19.5 / 64.2 / 47.6 (475 HRs)
Harmon Killebrew: -18.7 / 71.5 / 60.4 (573 HRs)
Billy Williams: -18.0 / 66.5 / 63.6 (426 HRs)
Paul Konerko: -17.7 / 33.1 / 28.1 (439 HRs)
Fred McGriff: -17.3 / 56.2 / 52.6 (493 HRs)
Carlos Delgado: -17.2 / 50.8 / 44.4 (473 HRs)
Dave Kingman: -16.7 / 23.2 / 17.3 (442 HRs)
Reggie Jackson: -16.4 / 77.2 / 73.9 (563 HRs)
Jim Thome: -16.4 / 77.7 / 73.1 (612 HRs)
Dante Bichette: -16.2 / 15.1 / 5.6 WAR (274 HRs)
Joe Carter: -15.7 / 28.2 / 19.5 (396 HRs)
Edwin Encarnacion: -15.1 / 42.3 / 35.5 (424 HRs)
Nelson Cruz: -14.5 / 44.0 / 42.5 (462 HRs)
Jose Canseco: -13.8 / 45.9 / 42.4 (462 HRs)
Ted Williams: -13.3 / 125.1 / 121.8 (521 HRs)
Mark McGwire: -12.2 / 65.4 / 62.2 (583 HRs)
Cecil Fielder: -12.2 / 20.3 / 17.2 (319 HRs)
Ralph Kiner: -10.7 / 52.9 / 48 (369 HRs)

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Defense matters: a list of some sluggers with low dWAR (as per baseball reference) and its effect on total WAR.

dWAR /oWAR / Total WAR

Note the similarity between Nelson Cruz and Jose Canseco.

Adam Dunn: -28.4 / 35.3 / 17.9 (462 HRs)
Gary Sheffield: -27.7 / 80.7 / 60.5 (509 HRs)
Dave Winfield: -22.7 / 74.1 / 64.2 (465 HRs)
Frank Thomas: -22.5 / 80.4 / 73.8 (521 HRs)
Manny Ramirez: -21.7 / 81.8 / 69.3 (555 HRs)
Willie McCovey: -21.6 / 72 / 64.5 (521 HRs)
David Ortiz: -20.9 / 56.7 / 55.3 (541 HRs)
Miguel Cabrera: -20.7 / 77.3 / 67.0 (507 HRs)
Prince Fielder: -20.5 / 34.1 / 23.8 (319 HRs)
Jason Giambi: -19.7 / 58.4 / 50.5 (440 HRs)
Willie Stargell: -19.5 / 64.2 / 47.6 (475 HRs)
Harmon Killebrew: -18.7 / 71.5 / 60.4 (573 HRs)
Billy Williams: -18.0 / 66.5 / 63.6 (426 HRs)
Paul Konerko: -17.7 / 33.1 / 28.1 (439 HRs)
Fred McGriff: -17.3 / 56.2 / 52.6 (493 HRs)
Carlos Delgado: -17.2 / 50.8 / 44.4 (473 HRs)
Dave Kingman: -16.7 / 23.2 / 17.3 (442 HRs)
Reggie Jackson: -16.4 / 77.2 / 73.9 (563 HRs)
Jim Thome: -16.4 / 77.7 / 73.1 (612 HRs)
Dante Bichette: -16.2 / 15.1 / 5.6 WAR (274 HRs)
Joe Carter: -15.7 / 28.2 / 19.5 (396 HRs)
Edwin Encarnacion: -15.1 / 42.3 / 35.5 (424 HRs)
Nelson Cruz: -14.5 / 44.0 / 42.5 (462 HRs)
Jose Canseco: -13.8 / 45.9 / 42.4 (462 HRs)
Ted Williams: -13.3 / 125.1 / 121.8 (521 HRs)
Mark McGwire: -12.2 / 65.4 / 62.2 (583 HRs)
Cecil Fielder: -12.2 / 20.3 / 17.2 (319 HRs)
Ralph Kiner: -10.7 / 52.9 / 48 (369 HRs)

Great info and lost. Amazed at some on that list

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Great info and lost. Amazed at some on that list

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

Jim Kaat won a Gold Glove in 1969 with a fielding percentage of 0.826. I suspect fielding awards have more to do with flash than fundamentals. And, advanced analytics haven't necessarily improved the Gold Glove awards in that regard. See "Jeter, Derek."

[todeen]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Jim Kaat won a Gold Glove in 1969 with a fielding percentage of 0.826. I suspect fielding awards have more to do with flash than fundamentals. And, advanced analytics haven't necessarily improved the Gold Glove awards in that regard. See "Jeter, Derek."

Derek Jeter was still before advanced analytics took over baseball. You would want to cite an example of someone after 2005 I would presume. As an avid fan, that is roughly the year I remember new terms coming into use that I couldn't calculate or completely comprehend. But they still hadn't overtaken the old school BBWA voters who were the ones casting votes.

The change coincides with moneyball analytics that occurred in the early 2000s.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I was really surprised by Dave Winfield's dWAR. Guy won 7 Gold Gloves and has a worse dWAR than Manny Ramirez or Harmon Killebrew?

I very much agree with you 7 Gold Gloves and that DWAR very surprising.

[Seven]

I'm not sure how accurate dWAR is, but what I do know was that Jeter at his best, was a slightly above average shortstop. His range did him no favors. His oWAR is above a 90 while his dWAR is well into the negatives. Gold Glove, seemed to become the celebrity award. I believe Palmero won a GG at first base, despite spending most of one season, at DH.

Also looking at the list a few posts above, really makes you wonder about certain players. Imagine if Ted Williams was a plus fielder? Would've probably gone down as the greatest player ever.