PWCC again F'ing up

[G1911]

Fraud ring = that’s fine, do business with them.

Minor personal inconvenience and having to send a form again = done with them!


I don’t get it, but I don’t have to get it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Fraud ring = that’s fine, do business with them.

Minor personal inconvenience and having to send a form again = done with them!


I don’t get it, but I don’t have to get it.

This hobby is full of contradictions my friend. The card is altered, and was shilled, but damn it he got it to me in just three days so all is well.

If you ship timely, and don't overcharge for postage (still the number one sin in the hobby apparently), the rest don't matter much.

And yeah avoid PWCC and think you're being virtuous, when 80 percent of the others you are dealing with are just as bad.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This hobby is full of contradictions my friend. The card is altered, and was shilled, but damn it he got it to me in just three days so all is well.

If you ship timely, and don't overcharge for postage (still the number one sin in the hobby apparently), the rest don't matter much.

And yeah avoid PWCC and think you're being virtuous, when 80 percent of the others you are dealing with are just as bad.

I get what you mean, but I would posit that there is not much virtue in it sir; I consider it largely selfish and unvirtuous self-interest to not deal with fraud rings, scammers, library thieves, shillers, opinion sellers of demonstrable incompetence, et alia. Lay with a snake, and you risk being bit in more ways than one. Opens myself to risk, and while one is not guilty by association it does not reflect well on or benefit one to so associate, like Catullus' auctioneer.

I suppose it is a low risk version of the same self-interest that drives people to ignore massive fraud rings and conduct business with them. On the other hand I say this from a place of privilege, I've crossed off the top of my want list and nothing left do I feel I really truly 'need' for my poor little collection. And so no REA account, no Heritage, no Probstein bidding, no PWCC, no Memory Lane, no PSA and SGC and Beckett etc. and so on is not so much a sacrifice. Friends, randoms on eBay I don't have reason to think to be crooked, a couple local dealers and some from here I have not seen conducting unethical business practices that would create risk for me. It's also just more fun when the hobby is a lighthearted joy than Faustian dealing to win more registry points.

I'm sure I'll get ripped off eventually anyways...

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm sure I'll get ripped off eventually anyways...

Ignorance is truly bliss. If you never know, then you will keep buying.

The issue I cant wrap my head around is how can people knowingly deal with PWCC and not have that little voice tugging at them asking "what if". On big money cards, where people have liquidated their 401ks and sold assets to purchase cards, they may have put their future and family at peril, and they sleep well at night?

[steve B]

I don't know about other states, but here the resale tax exempt form needs to be sent each year. It's surprising how many business owners don't know that.

Typically it's let slide though, I used to just give people a reminder when they bought stuff, like "Hey, your resale cert is out of date just send me a new one when you get a chance. "
Never had anyone have a problem with that, but then I didn't tax them.
I had one place get cranky about it, but filled out a new one at the pickup counter and learned they were fussy about the resale forms because they were being audited.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Ignorance is truly bliss. If you never know, then you will keep buying.

The issue I cant wrap my head around is how can people knowingly deal with PWCC and not have that little voice tugging at them asking "what if". On big money cards, where people have liquidated their 401ks and sold assets to purchase cards, they may have put their future and family at peril, and they sleep well at night?

It's the same mentality as the card bro's - 'I'm smarter and I will win the game'. Sometimes they will, and sometimes they won't.

Though I sincerely doubt any of the pumpers advocating for other people to go into debt and literally empty their 401K's to put everything into cards do this themselves. They just need more people to keep buying in so their portfolio rises, and say whatever promotes that.

[bobbyw8469]

It's just that it is exceptionally broad and obvious in their case and no one can credibly claim that they do not know.

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case??? That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material. And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case??? That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material. And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

That is your opinion and mine is different. I used to care and watched for shill bidding. 3 of the biggest card sellers all shared the same group of shill bidders and it was beyond obvious if you actually cared and watched their auctions. The only really sad part to me was one of those sellers used to be known as being extremely honest, now not so much.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case??? That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material. And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

PWCC was a lot more than just a platform. That's like saying Madoff was just an investment adviser. That said, I absolutely agree much of the hobby is tainted.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

How is it "broad and obvious" in their case???

Are you seriously unaware of the literally thousands of examples from Blowout, and the connections between many of the altered cards and Brent's buying accounts? I'm fairly confident you are not.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That is the issue that I have with it. They were just a platform. Same as Ebay. Ebay kicked them off for "shill bidding". PWCC never shill bid a card. The consignors shill bid on their own material.

Just a platform? False. They actively engaged in fraud themselves. Again, there are numerous examples of this, including with serial numbered unique cards. You surely know this.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And like someone else said, if you are trying to avoid the hobby due to nefarious characters, you might as well sell your collection now. Like the good book said, let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

Who said anything about avoiding the hobby due to nefarious characters? I actively participate, I just don't deal with people I know or reasonably suspect to be engaging in fraud or unethical business practices. I even named names as some examples, besides PWCC, unlike anyone else. Not a single person is or has argued that PWCC alone is guilty - they are just the biggest in the last 10-15 years with a very, very large body of evidence against them that all of you are well aware of, though you may pretend not to be because it makes your argument harder.

I would love to know what sin, in the context of hobby fraud, I have committed. Please let me know! Who have I defrauded? When? I cast stones at fraudsters. Most people do. It is only here in hobby land that being against fraud, regardless of who the perpetrator is, is unpopular and gets people going because so many of you are in bed with them but still want to mount some moral high horse.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

Fraud ring = that’s fine, do business with them.

Minor personal inconvenience and having to send a form again = done with them!


I don’t get it, but I don’t have to get it.

I was thinking the exact same thing while reading this thread.

[MBMiller25]

There is fraud all throughout this hobby. If you all sleep better thinking it’s relegated to just PWCC, that’s your decision. I learned really quickly when I tried to take the virtuous road and sold many HUGE cards thinking this market was about to bust a few years ago when the trimming scandal came to light that this “hobby” (if you want to call it that anymore) is going to just keep moving on irregardless what a bunch of board members opinions are.

The numbers don’t lie, the sheer growth in number of items in their weekly auctions show they are growing, not dying. We can find fault in any and every seller, it’s just the nature of the beast with anything involving money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MBMiller25

There is fraud all throughout this hobby.

Amen.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by MBMiller25

There is fraud all throughout this hobby. If you all sleep better thinking it’s relegated to just PWCC, that’s your decision. I learned really quickly when I tried to take the virtuous road and sold many HUGE cards thinking this market was about to bust a few years ago when the trimming scandal came to light that this “hobby” (if you want to call it that anymore) is going to just keep moving on irregardless what a bunch of board members opinions are.

The numbers don’t lie, the sheer growth in number of items in their weekly auctions show they are growing, not dying. We can find fault in any and every seller, it’s just the nature of the beast with anything involving money.

I don't think a single person has ever argued, in any PWCC thread on this board ever, that fraud is relegated to PWCC alone. It's just that it is exceptionally broad and obvious in their case and no one can credibly claim that they do not know. Where has anyone said PWCC is the only bad actor?

Numbers don't lie (well, they do when they are shilled and the shiller 'wins' to produce the new top sale that gets the pumpers juiced)... but they also don't prove things beyond the numbers. I have little doubt that PWCC's business is doing well. That does not change the fact they have been running a fraud ring and this is unattractive to some potential buyers. It's not 'finding fault in any and every seller' when they got caught with literally thousands of publicized examples of fraud. This is not some nitpick standard here.

If one wants to continue to deal with PWCC, more power to them. But we don't need to completely make things up to defend it.