Would you take this deal?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Michael B

After giving Bob a timeout for a double post I have a question that is more about aesthetics.

You state that you are a registry fool. I would guess that PSA's registry actually means something to you. If that is the case, my question would be: How would you feel knowing that the best card in that grade of a set I guess you collect is no longer owned by you and you only own the second best card? Or better yet - What on God's green earth are you thinking????

Why would you give up the best card in your collection for a few dollars if you do not need the money?

I read your post before anyone else answered and these were my first thoughts.

Exact same thing I was thinking as well when I mentioned why would you want to trade down on your card, but really get nothing in return but an increased tax basis? He already said he wasn't going to be selling this card anytime soon, so you're absolutely right, it seems like a dumb thing to do as a collector, Registry or no Registry even.

And the double posts just happen. I only click the submit button once, but occasionally it double, or even triple posts. No idea why, but have seen it happen to others on here as well.

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks, Bob. I feel like you should send me a bill for consulting. I don't do much selling or trading, but lots of buying. They used to have something called a casual sale. I actually have pretty good records on my cards.

[RCMcKenzie]

On a similar topic to Nic's.

A board member is working on a mid-tier hofer back run. He reaches out to me to see if I have a dupe of a rare card from T213-2 Coupon. I do. I paid $90 12 years ago from a BIN from Joe's Vintage. It has a sticker on the back that states "90-" in Joe's handwriting. SGC 10 with paper loss on front.

He offered a raw T213-3 common with front and back damage. I am thinking about it, and asked him to to throw in a low grade common t206. I haven't heard back. Should I forget about it?

[atx840]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I haven't heard back. Should I forget about it?

Rob, I wouldn't forget about it, they might have been traveling for work and then stuck on bed rest for a few days

[Touch'EmAll]

You have to consider eye appeal of the 2 cards in question, especially centering, and of course color, focus, print blips, tilt cut, etc.

If the card you currently have is better eye appeal - absolutely keep what you have.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

On a similar topic to Nic's.

A board member is working on a mid-tier hofer back run. He reaches out to me to see if I have a dupe of a rare card from T213-2 Coupon. I do. I paid $90 12 years ago from a BIN from Joe's Vintage. It has a sticker on the back that states "90-" in Joe's handwriting. SGC 10 with paper loss on front.

He offered a raw T213-3 common with front and back damage. I am thinking about it, and asked him to to throw in a low grade common t206. I haven't heard back. Should I forget about it?

No, I wouldn't forget about doing such a trade, assuming you are happy to get the two cards you're trading for. The only thing is, you technically end up owing income tax on the difference between the $90 you originally paid for the T213-2 Coupon card you're now trading away, and whatever the then current FMV is of the T213-3 and T206 cards you traded for, as of the date you made the trade.

Just remember to keep track of/a record of the trade so you know what your tax basis going forward is for the two cards you just traded for. It should be the FMV of both cards at the time of the trade you then use to figure out how much in sales proceeds you'll be reporting on your tax return from the deemed sale of the T213-2 card you just traded away.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

assuming you are happy to get the two cards you're trading for.

Yep, thats the bottom line: does it make you happy? This is supposed to be fun. A card collection is:

"a magic carpet that takes you away from work-a-day cares to havens of relaxing quietude where you can relive the pleasures and adventures of a past day—brought to life in vivid picture and prose." --Jefferson Burdick.

[Yoda]

Screw the deal. Keep the card and you won't regret it. Plus you can stop agonizing about it. There are a thousand stories from folks on the Board, including me, about cards they have regretted selling or trading.

[mq711]

This thread Gotta be about some super cool Willie Mays card! Wish we could see it because probably pretty rare.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Thanks, Bob. I feel like you should send me a bill for consulting. I don't do much selling or trading, but lots of buying. They used to have something called a casual sale. I actually have pretty good records on my cards.

LOL

Don't worry, no bill is coming.

And the concept of casual sales still exists, but as I would try to explain it to clients, think of a casual sale as like a garage sale to clear stuff out of the house. You don't continuously do it all the time, so you aren't a dealer in a trade or business. And you're usually just selling your old used clothing, furniture and other junk that you originally paid a lot more for. In which case you are basically selling everything for a loss anyway, so why waste yours and the IRS's time by having to go through the trouble of reporting it all on your tax return when nothing will ever be owed? But now you're talking collectibles that aren't just used personal items that depreciate in value over time. Plus, with the way card prices are today, the values and amounts are no longer insignificant. And couple all that with people using online venues and platforms to sell a lot of their stuff nowadays, like Etsy, Ebay, Comc, etc. These are all initially assumed by the IRS, and many others, as more like dealers in business who use the online services to sell their stuff. Think of it this way. With that new lowered reporting standard that went into effect, starting this year, anyone selling $600+ worth of stuff on Ebay is going to get a 1099-K form reporting their total sales for the year of $600 or more, and a copy will be sent to the IRS as well. Now maybe you only used Ebay for a couple "casual sales" and only sold two or three cards this whole year, for a total of say $800 in sales. When the IRS gets that 1099-K form next January with your name on it, showing you had $800 in sales to report, want to bet if the IRS assumes you are a dealer or a collector selling collectibles? They are going to initially assume you are a dealer, unless you properly file your tax return and accurately report at least the total of those $800 in sales shown on your 1099-K form as gross receipts from individual collectibles sold.

So with the advent of online and other related types of sales and sales venues, the idea of "casual Sales" has been altered a little in the way it is viewed nowadays.

And keep up with the records. And if/when the time comes to have to report things on your tax return, estimate the tax basis of some cards if you have to. Just do the best you can. The IRS can, and does, work with people more than you may think when it is difficult to find every single record or receipt.

[BobC]

Thanks Bob. I'm not in that situation, but I would've thought what I proposed would've been OK to do, and not a "trick." I appreciate your clarification. I do agree with you that when it comes to the IRS, it's best to play by the rules and sleep well at night.


Very true Mark, very true.

The real trick is to make sure you get everything onto your tax return that the IRS knows about and has record of (W-2s, 1099s, etc.), and to then make sure you have everything reported in the right place, on the right forms, nothing is missing, and all the numbers add up properly (ie: you didn't screw up the math). When you electronically file your return, no person at the IRS actually looks at it. It goes into their automated system and is processed by their computers. It will automatically check for missing items, bad math, missing forms, and so on, and if it finds something is off, will generate a letter/notice to you about what they found wrong. So you want your return to be able to go through the IRS's computer checking system without a glitch. It is usually better to use a tax software program to do your return (if not an accountant/tax preparer) as the software typically makes sure the math is good, and usually alerts you to missing od otherwise deficient things on your tax return. It also then usually lets you electronically file your return so it goes right into their system, untouched by human hands. LOL

It is when you prepare your return and paper file it, actually mail your return into the IRS, that a human has to go ahead and enter everything into the IRS's system for you. Obviously, you now have a human looking at your tax return, and they can possibly make a mistake in entering it into the IRS's computer system for you. Don't worry though, these aren't going to be actual tax auditors entering your paper filed returns into the IRS's system, but still, the more hands that have to touch your return, the more chances for errors.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by BobC

Exact same thing I was thinking as well when I mentioned why would you want to trade down on your card, but really get nothing in return but an increased tax basis? He already said he wasn't going to be selling this card anytime soon, so you're absolutely right, it seems like a dumb thing to do as a collector, Registry or no Registry even.

And the double posts just happen. I only click the submit button once, but occasionally it double, or even triple posts. No idea why, but have seen it happen to others on here as well.

I was thinking that it must be some quirk in the system, possibly the isp.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I was thinking that it must be some quirk in the system, possibly the isp.

Yeah, Leon said something like that to me once. Saw that was happening to him also.

[ALBB]

Nic,
good luck with decision

But it would be much more fun/ interesting/ easier ..for guys reading this if you could say -

For Ex - Im giving up my 33 G Nap Lajoie...for a 52 T Mantle and $150,000

[bnorth]

If it was just a simple trade with cash yes. With all the added BS involved not a chance.

[FrankWakefield]

Anyone here ever trade down, and then 3 years later be glad that they did?


If you really need the money, you need to trade, or maybe just sell the card outright.

I've sold a few cards that I wish I still had. A factor in that is that I still collect. If I was selling off the cards I have, I'd probably still miss whatever it is that you have, but I'd be missing all of my cards.

For you, if you're continuing with collecting, then that trade down card will always be there to remind you of what you once had, that'll be slightly more annoying, I suspect, than just having the memory alone.

In conclusion; if you're selling your collection then don't trade down, or trade down if you think that the trade down card plus the side money exceeds what you'd get in an outright sale. If you're going to continue with collecting, then don't trade...


Again, anyone here ever trade down, and then 3 years later be glad that they did?

And, do you guys really let tax factors dictate whether you buy, sell, or hold a card??? Really?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Anyone here ever trade down, and then 3 years later be glad that they did?


If you really need the money, you need to trade, or maybe just sell the card outright.

I've sold a few cards that I wish I still had. A factor in that is that I still collect. If I was selling off the cards I have, I'd probably still miss whatever it is that you have, but I'd be missing all of my cards.

For you, if you're continuing with collecting, then that trade down card will always be there to remind you of what you once had, that'll be slightly more annoying, I suspect, than just having the memory alone.

In conclusion; if you're selling your collection then don't trade down, or trade down if you think that the trade down card plus the side money exceeds what you'd get in an outright sale. If you're going to continue with collecting, then don't trade...


Again, anyone here ever trade down, and then 3 years later be glad that they did?

And, do you guys really let tax factors dictate whether you buy, sell, or hold a card??? Really?

I have traded down many times and have never regretted it. For me it was usually going from a graded to ungraded example. I have also done the 1 expensive card for several lesser cards many times with no regrets.

[parkplace33]

Very hard to give an opinion without knowing a) the specific card and b) the amount of cash you will be getting. But I will try

My concern is when you say "In this case, the item in question is one of the Crown Jewels of my collection. I paid more for it than I’ve paid for any other single piece. And at the moment, it’s arguably the most valuable piece in my collection." I think you have your answer there. Keep it and enjoy. And maybe let go of another piece if you want the cash.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

And, do you guys really let tax factors dictate whether you buy, sell, or hold a card??? Really?

I think for a lot of us, we pine for the good old days when lame adult stuff like taxes didn't matter. We could sit at home and trade cards all day long with our friends, and probably not even worry about stuff like centering and corners. And we sure didn't fuss about something as ludicrous as taxes. I suspect that a lot of the posts around here lamenting the current sad state of affairs are largely a mawkish plea for a return to the simplicity of childhood.

But returning to the here and now, when it comes to taxes, I'll admit to being a bit of an odd duck this way.

Part of the added fun here is that I really wasn't looking for this hypothetical deal. It came to me, rather than me seeking it out. I think if I had independently decided that it's time and I'm ready to sell this piece, or sell my collection entirely, then I would just sort of take the tax consequences and live with them.

I will also confess that I have an added overlay as a tax professional. I've worked pretty bloody hard for the last 20 years to get to where I am today as a senior partner at a top-30 CPA firm, and the pecuniary rewards for that hard work are pretty substantial. For the average American who takes a little more risk in being aggressive on their taxes, the consequences of getting caught usually aren't too severe. Pay your back taxes plus some penalties and interest. And a judge yells at you a bit about the importance of being a good citizen and paying your fair share. I think we can all agree that following the law is always a good idea, although for some of us, the risks of a little noncompliance are not quite so harrowing.

For a CPA, particularly one in my position, the consequences are typically a lot more severe, potentially even including some jail time, although that wouldn't necessarily be the worst of it. Among other things, if I were to blatantly cheat on my taxes, I would undoubtedly lose my license. And losing my license means that I get fired, and no one will ever hire me again.

So for me, the tax issues are generally front of mind, and can make a big difference in my approach.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ALBB

Nic,
good luck with decision

But it would be much more fun/ interesting/ easier ..for guys reading this if you could say -

For Ex - Im giving up my 33 G Nap Lajoie...for a 52 T Mantle and $150,000

Totally understand and agree.

Part of the fun is that I'm trying to keep some of the details obscure to protect the innocent.

Another part of the fun is that I had hoped that each of you could personalize it a bit by thinking of your own crown jewels and whether you would trade them down in exchange for some cash. As you note, leaving it this mysterious in some ways detracts from the exercise, because by not knowing the precise cards and details, it seems less real, and perhaps more difficult to really conceptualize.