Red Sun - Is it really a Louisiana exclusive?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by steve B

The jobbers mentioned in the articles would be the same sort of business I called distributors.

I would be surprised if ATC sold direct to a small store. The cost to process their bills etc would usually be more than the profits.

But this is just full of surprises, so maybe?

The ATC and its component companies put out a lot of ads in the journals, like the below, asking to send orders to their office directly.

There don't seem to be major distributors at all, and even local distributors appear to be rather limited and often sound like they are not independent, but a part of the monopoly. This comes up in the court testimonies sometimes, where the few independent makers are battling with the problems of the ATC's might in areas outside the direct tobacco manufacturing, and cite that they are blocked from distribution. I gather the ATC did not formally own in a clean way these local distribution channels, but they function as an arm of the trust and appear to be part of it; like the relationship between Brett and American Lithography. It seems to be an internal network they are using, not outside distributors like Topps uses today.

I imagine this was probably not more profitable - but a lot of the ATC's work isn't about making direct profit but stifling competition to later make all of the profit. Allowing independent distributors would have made sales easier for their competition. I would guess this is why the system is more complicated than it needed to be, but you know what guesses are like!

[Pat R]

Pretty good read on how big the ATC was in 1910. Sorry about the way the clippings are but it was broken up and on two different pages.

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[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

The ATC and its component companies put out a lot of ads in the journals, like the below, asking to send orders to their office directly.

There don't seem to be major distributors at all, and even local distributors appear to be rather limited and often sound like they are not independent, but a part of the monopoly. This comes up in the court testimonies sometimes, where the few independent makers are battling with the problems of the ATC's might in areas outside the direct tobacco manufacturing, and cite that they are blocked from distribution. I gather the ATC did not formally own in a clean way these local distribution channels, but they function as an arm of the trust and appear to be part of it; like the relationship between Brett and American Lithography. It seems to be an internal network they are using, not outside distributors like Topps uses today.

I imagine this was probably not more profitable - but a lot of the ATC's work isn't about making direct profit but stifling competition to later make all of the profit. Allowing independent distributors would have made sales easier for their competition. I would guess this is why the system is more complicated than it needed to be, but you know what guesses are like!

That's pretty interesting.

The industries I've been in have been all over the place as far as distributors go. Anywhere from one place where I worked for their distributor and ended up getting every strange request east of the Mississippi. To a company that got really mad at me when I bought from a distributor way outside my area because the local guys wouldn't call me back for 2 weeks on a price and delivery request when I gave them their own part number, and it was basically sold I just had to quote it for my customer who wasn't going to wait a couple weeks.

Bikes produced some bad ones. Fuji had the place I got parts from set up as a distributor. They put together a whole dealer network, then partway into year two Fuji decided to not have distributors and took every one of those places - all of New England - direct. Cost the distributor thousands.
The other is a brand the shop I worked for sort of carried. We could get them, but a much larger local place also has the brand, and for some reason if we want to sell a high end bike they can and have told the distributor we can't have the bike and to send the sale to them. (This would be a point where I wouldn't carry that brand OR do any favors for that larger shop like they asked for a few days after stealing a big sale. But the owner like to play nice. )

I can see ATC not owning a jobber, but being the biggest and nearly only game in town telling jobbers that of they carry a non ATC brand that isn't approved they might not have ATC anymore.

[Pat R]

I guess that I was the only one that was fascinated that the American Tobacco Company controlled 96% of the cigarette output in the world in 1910.

ATC Cairo The_Charlotte_News_Fri__Jul_26__1907_.jpg

ATC Canada and Japan Winston_Salem_Journal_Fri__Jan_6__1905_.jpg

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[steve B]

I think I just missed it. It is amazing, in many ways.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think I just missed it. It is amazing, in many ways.

It's amazing how powerful they actually were, it took the government 4 years to dissolve the monopoly that they had.

The government even placed a ban on ATC products in the military in 1909.

Soldier ATC banOmaha_Daily_Bee_Tue__Jul_20__1909_.jpg

[canjond]

Sorry for the late reply here. The Red Sun pack pictured above is mine. I only know of 2 period packs - the Red Sun above which is circa 1905 and pre-dates the cards, but was made by the same company (as it would be acquired by the ATC), and one that is period. However, the one that is period sold in an eBay auction probably 15 years ago to a buyer in China and I have no idea where it is now. I only have this relatively poor scan of it.

- Jon

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It's amazing how powerful they actually were, it took the government 4 years to dissolve the monopoly that they had.

The government even placed a ban on ATC products in the military in 1909.

What's amazing is that they achieved so much economic power while apparently forgetting to pay off the Feds

[Brian Weisner]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I guess that I was the only one that was fascinated that the American Tobacco Company controlled 96% of the cigarette output in the world in 1910.

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Hey Pat,
Having grown up in Winston Salem… I assumed everyone knew how dominant ATC was during the time. Tobacco products built our city, state, and played a huge roll in rebuilding the South and the Nation after the Civil War.
It’s probably a lot more difficult to see today, as the anti smoking campaigns of the 1990’s raised awareness on the health risks and caused a decline in consumption. Congress also passed a number of laws curtailing the placement of advertising of tobacco products, which further decreased exposure and usage.
20 years ago… everyone knew Winston Salem, as the home of Reynolds Tobacco Co….I doubt most people under 30 have any idea the impact tobacco made on every facet of American life just a short time ago.

Be well Brian

PS I love reading the old articles… makes me remember all of those trips to the library stacks

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I guess that I was the only one that was fascinated that the American Tobacco Company controlled 96% of the cigarette output in the world in 1910.

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Not at all the only one Pat. That is astounding that they were in control of that much of the domestic cigarette market. What does surprise me is that there had not been a run up in prices. Where else were people going to get their cigarettes/tobacco otherwise?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BobC

Not at all the only one Pat. That is astounding that they were in control of that much of the domestic cigarette market. What does surprise me is that there had not been a run up in prices. Where else were people going to get their cigarettes/tobacco otherwise?

The illusion of competition, which may have kept them out of trouble for a while.

Plus, with so many different brands they could have different pricing tiers for what was actually the same product.

I would think that what was produced at say factory 30 was the same stuff in different paper tubes.


That's still done today. A friend worked on controls at a plant making vodka. They did 6 different brands, all from the same machine. Monday- Premium brand, Tuesday to Friday different brand each day less premium each day. Saturday, rotgut until the charcoal filters finally gave out. Sunday change the charcoal...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by steve B

The illusion of competition, which may have kept them out of trouble for a while.

Plus, with so many different brands they could have different pricing tiers for what was actually the same product.

I would think that what was produced at say factory 30 was the same stuff in different paper tubes.


That's still done today. A friend worked on controls at a plant making vodka. They did 6 different brands, all from the same machine. Monday- Premium brand, Tuesday to Friday different brand each day less premium each day. Saturday, rotgut until the charcoal filters finally gave out. Sunday change the charcoal...

That is a good point Steve, and well aware that that is still done today.

[cfc1909]

I find it interesting that T210 Series 6, 1, or 2 for example don't have any Fat Border cards

Series 2 T210 Old Mill Fat Border