$117K SGC 8.5 DiMaggio WWG trimmed heavily, previously an SGC 6

[Johnny630]

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

I don't think that's true. I think they don't know. They assume the TPGs are making sure the cards are not altered.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

WIth a card like this in that high a grade holder, there really should be a presumption that it's been altered, IMO, even if it may be hard to tell given the expertise of the work.\

BTW I wonder if Dave Forman graded this one personally. I'll leave it at that.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

WIth a card like this in that high a grade holder, there really should be a presumption that it's been altered, IMO, even if it may be hard to tell given the expertise of the work.

Amazing that it got graded. But it sure looks great in that tux!

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[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

WIth a card like this in that high a grade holder, there really should be a presumption that it's been altered, IMO, even if it may be hard to tell given the expertise of the work.\

BTW I wonder if Dave Forman graded this one personally. I'll leave it at that.

More like Eric was running late for a date and palmed the job off on Hyde

[steve B]

A small sugestion, and to some extent BODA is already doing it.

Other hobbies have Censuses, which aren't simply population reports, but are a more and more a visual reference of each known example of a rare item.

I think we really need something like that for most fairly difficult expensive cards.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I don't think that's true. I think they don't know. They assume the TPGs are making sure the cards are not altered.

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Bbwaa....and that isn't supposed to mean BB writers association of America...

Bbwaa... I guess that's the point, they're trusting the TPGs. Trust'em? Bbwaa...

Bbwaa...

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Fred

Bbwaa....and that isn't supposed to mean BB writers association of America...



Bbwaa... I guess that's the point, they're trusting the TPGs. Trust'em? Bbwaa...



Bbwaa...

Yep, exactly.

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[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I don't think that's true. I think they don't know. They assume the TPGs are making sure the cards are not altered.

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Very possible but my point is they don't want to know or care to know. It's in a holder end of the discussion for the investor it's good to go.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Very possible but my point is they don't want to know or care to know. It's in a holder end of the discussion for the investor it's good to go.

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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Fake I agree with you....trimmed not so much in a holder they don't care.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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The buyers of the most famous investment card in the hobby seem to disagree. PSA 8 it might be, but it's been well known pretty much from the start that it ain't unaltered.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

The buyers of the most famous investment card in the hobby seem to disagree. PSA 8 it might be, but it's been well known pretty much from the start that it ain't unaltered.

Are you just trolling? If you really think the buyer knew (or suspected) the Dimaggio was trimmed, let's hear it.

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[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Are you just trolling? If you really think the buyer knew (or suspected) the Dimaggio was trimmed, let's hear it.

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Are you just not reading? People are saying investors don't care if a card is trimmed, not that the buyer of this card knows for a fact it is trimmed.

I understand it is easier to argue against this claim you made up instead, but nobody said it. Try harder.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's not true, either. Anyone that is concerned about future value wants to know their card is legit. No "investor" wants to be sitting on a fake.

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They have a 'real' 8.5 slab.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

100 percent Johnny. Many of these “collectors” have bowed down to the almighty grading card companies. As long as the card is in a holder and is high grade, they don’t care what was done to it.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

Sad but true commentary. As long as someone can flip the card for a profit and not have to be held responsible for the actual condition/state of the card because people blindly rely on TPGs that fall back on "subjectivity" (or worse).

Back in the day the biggest concern about slabbed cards was that someone would exchange/swap a card in the holder (WIWAG was one of the first) and defraud people to make their money. Today, TPGs grade on a much larger scale and do it less accurately which results in a lot of people that are not getting what they paid for. What boggles the mind is that we're not talking hundreds of dollars but 10s of thousands of dollars (and more).

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Fred

Sad but true commentary. As long as someone can flip the card for a profit and not have to be held responsible for the actual condition/state of the card because people blindly rely on TPGs that fall back on "subjectivity" (or worse).

Back in the day the biggest concern about slabbed cards was that someone would exchange/swap a card in the holder (WIWAG was one of the first) and defraud people to make their money. Today, TPGs grade on a much larger scale and do it less accurately which results in a lot of people that are not getting what they paid for. What boggles the mind is that we're not talking hundreds of dollars but 10s of thousands of dollars (and more).

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed. SGC to me losses credibility with this one...sad hope they tighten up.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed.

I know you've been paying attention. Not sure why you'd trust them either.

Remember, they knew Gary was passing trimmed cards through them 20 years ago, and did nothing to stop it. And many of the cards outed over the last five years have been laughable, even from PSA.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I know you've been paying attention. Not sure why you'd trust them either.

Remember, they knew Gary was passing trimmed cards through them 20 years ago, and did nothing to stop it. And many of the cards outed over the last five years have been laughable, even from PSA.

I have but PSA They're not even this bad....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed. SGC to me losses credibility with this one...sad hope they tighten up.

It looks narrow compared to the very wide SGC 80. Not so sure it looks that narrow compared to the average card in this issue. I am guessing if someone had just posted the 8.5 by itself, you wouldn't be making that blind bat comment.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It looks narrow compared to the very wide SGC 80. Not so sure it looks that narrow compared to the average card in this issue. I am guessing if someone had just posted the 8.5 by itself, you wouldn't be making that blind bat comment.

I don't know I think if you have seen this card in your hand raw you would say something is wrong here, you know better. Just me idk...it’s small... that's all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I don't know I think if you have seen this card in your hand raw you would say something is wrong here, you know better. Just me idk...it’s small... that's all.

Look at all the WWGs on ebay and tell me if you still think it's obviously narrow. Size seems to vary.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I don't know I think if you have seen this card in your hand raw you would say something is wrong here, you know better. Just me idk...it’s small... that's all.

If I was being paid hundreds of dollars to be sure if it was trimmed or not among other things I'd darn sure know how to tell. (I do now, but would be extra dilligent, which apparently isn't at all how grading is done.)

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by steve B

If I was being paid hundreds of dollars to be sure if it was trimmed or not among other things I'd darn sure know how to tell.

But the opinion sellers don't care like you do, and they have proven that they don't care time and time again.

It really is laughable.

[MantleMarisFordBerra]

It's a sin to destroy a beautiful card like that.

One phrase I've noticed a couple times is "full boarders". For example when people are talking about the condition of a card they'll say "Great centering, strong color & full boarders". I suspect this phrase will become more & more common in the coming years.

Shout out to BODA (BlowOut Detective Agency) for all their amazing work.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA Wouldnt have graded this it's so narrow a blind bat could tell it's trimmed. SGC to me losses credibility with this one...sad hope they tighten up.

They wouldn't?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

They wouldn't?

Guess what check the Pop this has now been bumped the Wagner that’s right to a PSA 10

Check the Pop WOW SO COOL WHAT A GREAT CARD THIS IS THE GRAIL now a 10 WOW

The card deserves it!!

Does anyone think this was done in error??

[Leon]

The person who originally graded it told me he couldn't see any trimming, and had no other evidence of alterations, so he graded it correctly at an 8. No conspiracy, no nothing. Now, after the fact and with other evidence, it's a different story. Trimming will never be an exact science and many are hard to tell, at best. .

As far as it being a 10...just some kind of gamesmanship or joke.

Concerning the original DiMaggio card, whomever graded it should have measured it first. Big mistake. The BODA group does a fantastic job. Kudos to them and I hope they keep going forever and a day!!

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Guess what check the Pop this has now been bumped the Wagner that’s right to a PSA 10

Check the Pop WOW SO COOL WHAT A GREAT CARD THIS IS THE GRAIL now a 10 WOW

The card deserves it!!

Does anyone think this was done in error??

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

The person who originally graded it told me he couldn't see any trimming, and had no other evidence of alterations, so he graded it correctly at an 8. No conspiracy, no nothing. Now, after the fact and with other evidence, it's a different story. Trimming will never be an exact science and many are hard to tell, at best. .

Begs the question of expertise. If the supposed experts cannot tell the difference, doesn't say a lot for their services: if you can't catch stuff like this, why would I spend thousands of dollars for your blessing? Oh, and when the TPG pulls the cert out from under a trimmed card because the grade was wrong and they now look stupid and have to "do something", the one holding the hot potato at the time gets burned. "Hey, man, it's just an opinion and we decided to change it. You can't rely on our opinion." I've had this case brought to me several times and the end result is the same with the TPGs. They all say the same thing: "We don't owe you compensation. Look at our disclaimer." Here is SGC's:

9. Customer acknowledges and agrees the grading and/or authentication of items requires the exercise of individual judgment and professional opinion, which is subjective in nature, and can change from time to time. Therefore, SGC makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade or determination of authenticity assigned by SGC to any item.

20. Except as expressly set forth herein to the contrary, SGC DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, REGARDING SGC’S GOODS AND SERVICES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

22. SGC OR ANY OF ITS AFFILIATES, OR ANY OF ITS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR AGENTS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES, NOR SHALL SGC OR ANY OF ITS AFFILIATES, OR ANY OF ITS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR AGENTS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES WHICH ARE BASED UPON ALLEGED NEGLIGENCE, BREACH OF WARRANTY, STRICT LIABILITY, OR ANY THEORY OTHER THAN THE LIMITED LIABILITY STATED HEREIN, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SAME.

Oh, and the final kick in the nuts for the customer who trusted SGC:

"25. Customer agrees to indemnify, defend and hold SGC and (as applicable) its parent, subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, directors, agents, and employees, harmless from any loss, claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of or related to the submission of an item to SGC, related to the grade and/or determination of authenticity assigned by SGC, any services or products provided by SGC to Customer, Customer’s breach of this Agreement or the documents it incorporates by reference, or customer’s violation of any law or the rights of a third party. This indemnification will survive termination."

Yep, you read it right. If SGC messes up and the hapless buyer of the card comes a knockin', SGC will not only refuse to pay for its mistake, SGC will make its customer pay for its mistake. I wish I could write that sort of crap into my retainer. It would save me a fortune in malpractice insurance if i could just disclaim liability for any mistakes I might make. Hell, if i could do that I'd probably lose 40# of stress weight and not have gastritis every other day at work.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

The person who originally graded it told me he couldn't see any trimming, and had no other evidence of alterations, so he graded it correctly at an 8. No conspiracy, no nothing. Now, after the fact and with other evidence, it's a different story. Trimming will never be an exact science and many are hard to tell, at best. .

As far as it being a 10...just some kind of gamesmanship or joke.

Concerning the original DiMaggio card, whomever graded it should have measured it first. Big mistake. The BODA group does a fantastic job. Kudos to them and I hope they keep going forever and a day!!

At least according to O'Keeffe, the grader told him a different story, yes?

In any event does anyone claim it was pack issued as opposed to being sheet cut?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

They wouldn't?

From what I understand Bill Mastro cut that card from an oversized football shape to the size of a normal T206 card, it measures correctly and might even be slightly larger than a normal T206 card, personally I would describe it as hand cut/sheet cut rather than trimmed.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For the most part, investors don’t care what may have been done to a card as long as it’s in a PSA Slab with a number grade it’s gold. This is the bottom line of where we are at in 2023.

Very true, Johnny, but should this card surface again in the marketplace, then many folks with long memories will stay well clear.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Very true, Johnny, but should this card surface again in the marketplace, then many folks with long memories will stay well clear.

Agree and hope so :-)

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Very true, Johnny, but should this card surface again in the marketplace, then many folks with long memories will stay well clear.

For most of us this would be true but most of us could not afford to spend 6 figures on a card. Those who can seem to have quite a large appetite for overlooking such details and simply want a card that absent the alteration might not ever exist.