Felix Mendelsohn & M101-4 and M101-5

[cubman1941]

Bob C. and Todd - I thank you for your information. It was much appreciated. I will go ahead and change my listings to Felix Mendelsohn with various subsets. This may not be the best way but it makes the most sense.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

Bob C. and Todd - I thank you for your information. It was much appreciated. I will go ahead and change my listings to Felix Mendelsohn with various subsets. This may not be the best way but it makes the most sense.

Jim,

If possible, see if you can get a hold of a copy of one of the later (mid 2010's) versions of the Krause/SCD Vintage catalogs, you will see the description and layout of these various M101-4 and M101-5 sets as I and Todd discussed. I think the last one they issued was in 2017? Though by no means perfect and covering everything, it is probably the best most overall definitive, up-to-date source for information regarding vintage, especially pre-war, sets out there. Good luck with your project.

[mrreality68]

either way we would love to see some of the photos of the cards that are most special to you.

[cubman1941]

BobC - actually I have a 3rd Edition of SCD Vintage Cards but what got me started on this was something I had printed off and just found it again. OBC Checklist had combined the 1916 M-105 and M-104 sets into one. Then somplace I read a discussion that said this combined list should be named the Mendelsohn set. and listed the combined set as 1916 M-105-M-104 as Sporting News AKA Felix Mendelsohn. So I was trying to find out if this is now the known name or not. I gather the best solution is what has been proposed and that is to list these 1916 Sets as Felix Mendelsohn with a combined checklist and then the other sets such as Famous and Barr, Weil Baking, etc. as subsets.

Boy, I sure do appreciate everone's knowledge.

Jim

Originally Posted by BobC

Jim,

If possible, see if you can get a hold of a copy of one of the later (mid 2010's) versions of the Krause/SCD Vintage catalogs, you will see the description and layout of these various M101-4 and M101-5 sets as I and Todd discussed. I think the last one they issued was in 2017? Though by no means perfect and covering everything, it is probably the best most overall definitive, up-to-date source for information regarding vintage, especially pre-war, sets out there. Good luck with your project.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

BobC - actually I have a 3rd Edition of SCD Vintage Cards but what got me started on this was something I had printed off and just found it again. OBC Checklist had combined the 1916 M-105 and M-104 sets into one. Then somplace I read a discussion that said this combined list should be named the Mendelsohn set. and listed the combined set as 1916 M-105-M-104 as Sporting News AKA Felix Mendelsohn. So I was trying to find out if this is now the known name or not. I gather the best solution is what has been proposed and that is to list these 1916 Sets as Felix Mendelsohn with a combined checklist and then the other sets such as Famous and Barr, Weil Baking, etc. as subsets.

Boy, I sure do appreciate everone's knowledge.

Jim

There are later SCD editions as well (I'm looking at the 5th edition right now) that can even have further changes and updates. The OBC site and checklists are very informative, but are not at all as accurate or up to date as the SCD catalogs are, so be careful when relying upon them. For example, go look at the S74 silks on the OBC site listed under their "Others" link. They still show the set as a 1909/10 set, when it has long been determined and known that like the T205 cards they share images with, the S74-1 white version silks did not come out till likely late 1910. And the S74-2 colored version silks definitely did not come out till around mid-1911. Also the S74-1 white silks checklist on the OBC site still lists 92 different silks as existing. But most advanced silk collectors have known for quite a few years now that 5 of the white version silks on that checklist do not actually exist. If you look in your 3rd edition of the Vintage SCD catalog you'll see that the S74-1 white silk numbers 36, 46, 67, 69, and 80 are still listed on the checklist, but with an "Existence now questioned." designation. Trust me, there is no question among advanced and knowledgeable silk collectors that these five white version silks do not exist with an advertising back. Chances are someone in the distant past may have come across similar S74-2 colored version silks of these five different players which were made of a similarly colored material as the S74-1 white version silks, but had significant fraying at the top and bottom so the tobacco brand name and designated factory were gone The mistake was then likely made that these may have been S74-1 white silks without the advertising backs still attached. The truth is that no examples of these five particular silks has ever been found with an advertising back still attached though, and thus the questioned existence designation by the SCD catalogs. There are very likely other OBC set descriptions and checklists that have not been updated and vetted on their site in a long time as well. I tried sending a message about the errors on the S74-1 silk set and checklist to OBC quite a long time (years) ago, but never heard back or saw any corrections or updates, so not sure how much maintenance and updating, if any, they still do to the site. Just an FYI.

If you're looking for more information on other sites about these M101-4/5 cards and sets, you should also check out the Pre-War Cards site (see link below). I have the link taking you right to the page on M cards, so you can cursor down and select the 1916 Sporting News/Mendelsohn M101-4 and Sporting News/Mendelsohn M101-5 sets to look at. You'll see similar information and discussion of the misnomer of calling these Sporting News sets, and how the M101-5 cards were never printed with Sporting News backs at all. They also list many of the other sets that are similar to and share the images on these M101-4/5 cards, so some more info to look at and maybe help you in setting up your files/spreadsheet. Good luck.

https://prewarcards.com/pre-war-card...spublications/

[cubman1941]

Thanks much. Appreciate it and will check the website out.

[cubman1941]

BobC - checked the website out and, boy, is it great. I have bookmarked it. Thanks a lot for steering me to it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

BobC - checked the website out and, boy, is it great. I have bookmarked it. Thanks a lot for steering me to it.

No problem Jim, always happy to help out a fellow collector, and discuss stuff like this. PM me if you have any other thoughts/questions. And would love to see what you come up with when you're done creating your files/spreadsheet.

For as much as we know about a lot of these pre-war and other vintage sets, there is an awful lot we still don't know or talk about. That is part of the fun of collecting, along with trying to remember everything you're learned or heard over the years. LOL

Over 25 years ago at a live auction I came across a near set of M101-4 blank back cards, about 95%+ of the set, but almost all of them were trimmed. And no, no big names like Cobb, Ruth, or Wagner. Paid about $1K for the near set, and afterwards kept asking myself, What was I thinking? LOL I foolishly ended up trading away all the trimmed cards (about 4 or 5 weren't trimmed) to a dealer at one of the Nationals back in the 90's in return for some cards he had that I wanted. Don't even remember what the cards were that I traded for now, but have since wished I had kept the trimmed near set. Oh well, live and learn, and never done anything like that since.

[spec]

Cubman,
While you are giving Mendelsohn his due, please rename the BF2 Ferguson set since they, too, are a Mendelsohn product that never had anything to do with the Boston bakery, which used an entirely different array of photos for the felts related to its D381 issue.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by cubman1941

Bob C. and Todd - I thank you for your information. It was much appreciated. I will go ahead and change my listings to Felix Mendelsohn with various subsets. This may not be the best way but it makes the most sense.

You might want to call them 1916 Felix Mendelsohn. Not to muddy the waters, but technically Mendelsohn is responsible for the 1917 sets as well. Although nearly all of them have their own ACC designation, Merchant's Bakery and blank-backs do not (it is not accurate to call them E135 blank backs).

[BobC]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

You might want to call them 1916 Felix Mendelsohn. Not to muddy the waters, but technically Mendelsohn is responsible for the 1917 sets as well. Although nearly all of them have their own ACC designation, Merchant's Bakery and blank-backs do not (it is not accurate to call them E135 blank backs).

The 1917-20 Felix Mendelsohn set is easy to differentiate from all the earlier sets due to the size of the cards/photos. They are closer to postcard size, and not the M101-4/M101-5 card sizes. And many of these 1917-20 cards/photos do have the Felix Mendelsohn company initials actually on the cards/photos themselves, unlike the M101-4/M101-5 type card sets that have no indication of being produced/printed by Felix Mendelsohn on them at all. Again, probably a big reason why the 1917-20 photos/cards are now most often referred to as THE Felix Mendelsohn set, but not the earlier issued cards with no Felix Mendelsohn references on them at all. But as already stated, all of these cards/photos were produced/printed by the Felix Mendelsohn company, so referring to them all as Felix Mendelsohn's is not inaccurate.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by BobC

The 1917-20 Felix Mendelsohn set is easy to differentiate from all the earlier sets due to the size of the cards/photos. They are closer to postcard size, and not the M101-4/M101-5 card sizes. And many of these 1917-20 cards/photos do have the Felix Mendelsohn company initials actually on the cards/photos themselves, unlike the M101-4/M101-5 type card sets that have no indication of being produced/printed by Felix Mendelsohn on them at all. Again, probably a big reason why the 1917-20 photos/cards are now most often referred to as THE Felix Mendelsohn set, but not the earlier issued cards with no Felix Mendelsohn references on them at all. But as already stated, all of these cards/photos were produced/printed by the Felix Mendelsohn company, so referring to them all as Felix Mendelsohn's is not inaccurate.

I was referring to what people commonly know as E135 Collins-McCarthy, H801 Boston Store, D328 Weil Baking and D350-2 Standard Biscuit. These 1917 cards all came from Mendelsohn, and so could be listed as 1917 Felix Mendelsohn with subsets if so desired. In that case, though, you would want to differentiate the m101-6 set, which as noted is completely different from the others and had multiple years of production.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I was referring to what people commonly know as E135 Collins-McCarthy, H801 Boston Store, D328 Weil Baking and D350-2 Standard Biscuit. These 1917 cards all came from Mendelsohn, and so could be listed as 1917 Felix Mendelsohn with subsets if so desired. In that case, though, you would want to differentiate the m101-6 set, which as noted is completely different from the others and had multiple years of production.

Sorry then, my bad. When you just mentioned 1917, I thought you might be referring to what was once known as the M101-6 set. See, just shows how confusing these sets can be. LOL

And yes, the M101-6 set is the 1917-20 Felix Mendelsohn larger size set. Definitely different and unique from all the other mentioned sets. I always figured they used the M101-6 reference since at one time it was thought the set was somehow issued by the Sporting News, since that was how these cards/photos were marketed and being sold through the Sporting News magazines. Most of the other M101 set references (such as the M101-1, M101-2, M101-9, etc.) do specifically refer to Sporting News issued sets, and thus the initial confusion and erroneous designation of the 1917-20 Felix Mendelsohn set as an M101-6 Sporting News related set is somewhat understandable and explainable.

Great cards and sets, though often confusing and not always understood as to their origins.

[cubman1941]

Thanks for a great discussion, as always, I learned a lot from our Net54 people.

Jeff, I don't have many but here are a few.

Archer is trimmed and one is Standard Biscut, The Zeider is Herpolsheimer.

[mrreality68]

Love it and thanks for sharing

especially like Jim Vaughn