Gone with the stain

[jchcollins]

Say what you will about guys like Dick Towle, but unless he was just lying - my understanding is that the large majority of cards he worked on did wind up grading fine with PSA and SGC afterwards. If it's really that untraceable, you have to be a purist several degrees further along the spectrum than I am I guess to object...

It would definitely be something under the category of "Don't try this at home, kids..." for me.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Say what you will about guys like Dick Towle, but unless he was just lying - my understanding is that the large majority of cards he worked on did wind up grading fine with PSA and SGC afterwards. If it's really that untraceable, you have to be a purist several degrees further along the spectrum than I am I guess to object...

It would definitely be something under the category of "Don't try this at home, kids..." for me.

That PSA and SGC are grossly incompetent doesn’t justify fraud and undisclosed alteration (which is what happens with the vast, vast majority of cards they doctor).

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

That PSA and SGC are grossly incompetent doesn’t justify fraud and undisclosed alteration (which is what happens with the vast, vast majority of cards they doctor).

Apologies, guess I'm wearing my realist cap today. That they are grossly (or maybe at least somewhat) incompetent is also something that is unlikely to ever change. If folks 2 years ago or so could not get on the bandwagon to force change after all the alteration / trimming, Moser-gate - then I have little faith that it will ever happen.

I don't like cards that are obviously altered, no, but the truth of the matter is that with most cards like those that come out of GWTS, many of us cannot tell the difference. Maybe it isn't that we shouldn't care - it's just that I don't see much room for change.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Apologies, guess I'm wearing my realist cap today. That they are grossly (or maybe at least somewhat) incompetent is also something that is unlikely to ever change. If folks 2 years ago or so could not get on the bandwagon to force change after all the alteration / trimming, Moser-gate - then I have little faith that it will ever happen.

I don't like cards that are obviously altered, no, but the truth of the matter is that with most cards like those that come out of GWTS, many of us cannot tell the difference. Maybe it isn't that we shouldn't care - it's just that I don't see much room for change.

I agree that PSA is unlikely to become competent (or not corrupt, one can take their pick). Many people cannot tell the alterations.

But I don't think that is justification (very different from 'realistic'), and doesn't mean one shouldn't object to it. That the fraud goes undetected does not make it okay.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

...my understanding is that the large majority of cards he worked on did wind up grading fine with PSA and SGC afterwards. If it's really that untraceable, you have to be a purist several degrees further along the spectrum than I am I guess to object...

Your original argument here is not that it's realistic to acknowledge it will happen and the graders will certify them anyways. Your statement as written is that frauds (as not disclosing alterations is) that are not detected are unobjectionable. Getting away with the crime doesn't make it unobjectionable. Selling a knock off to someone they don't know isn't real and looks pretty close isn't alright. Many in the hobby clearly feel that any and everything is fine if it gets into a slab and PSA certifies the fraud, but I have a hard time seeing any ethical argument for the original statement.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree that PSA is unlikely to become competent (or not corrupt, one can take their pick). Many people cannot tell the alterations.

But I don't think that is justification (very different from 'realistic'), and doesn't mean one shouldn't object to it. That the fraud goes undetected does not make it okay.



Your original argument here is not that it's realistic to acknowledge it will happen and the graders will certify them anyways. Your statement as written is that frauds (as not disclosing alterations is) that are not detected are unobjectionable. Getting away with the crime doesn't make it unobjectionable. Selling a knock off to someone they don't know isn't real and looks pretty close isn't alright. Many in the hobby clearly feel that any and everything is fine if it gets into a slab and PSA certifies the fraud, but I have a hard time seeing any ethical argument for the original statement.

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

Of course, you might say things you do not believe, but as it is a text based message board people will reply to the actual statements made, not your unstated thoughts that cannot possibly be read.

Never have I insinuated, obviously, that people have the ability to stop other people from doing bad things. Where there is money there will be fraud. There are many, many far worse things than this in the world that A) I have no meaningful power to stop but B) am cognizant are wrong and am strongly against. One can only recognize a problem if they have the authority to stop it? That would be rather absurd. One can object to a plethora of wrong things while not having the power to stop it. Obviously I cannot snap my fingers and put an end to fraud. That is an absurdist setup. There isn't a crime in the world we could recognize as a crime if this was how it worked.

People, of course, could greatly reduce the fraud by declining to be a party to it and continuing to pay card alterers, fraudsters, and paying many multiples of a cards value for a slab form a firm that cannot tell a CJ Mack from a Dover Mack.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I met Dick and had many back and forths with him here He was very up front about his services, some of which were minor and some of which IMO were more objectionable. The problem was that his customers were in large part using his services to deceive. And he had to know this. I don't know anything about the business after Dick's passing.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

Of course, you might say things you do not believe, but as it is a text based message board people will reply to the actual statements made, not your unstated thoughts that cannot possibly be read.

Never have I insinuated, obviously, that people have the ability to stop other people from doing bad things. Where there is money there will be fraud. There are many, many far worse things than this in the world that A) I have no meaningful power to stop but B) am cognizant are wrong and am strongly against. One can only recognize a problem if they have the authority to stop it? That would be rather absurd. One can object to a plethora of wrong things while not having the power to stop it. Obviously I cannot snap my fingers and put an end to fraud. That is an absurdist setup. There isn't a crime in the world we could recognize as a crime if this was how it worked.

People, of course, could greatly reduce the fraud by declining to be a party to it and continuing to pay card alterers, fraudsters, and paying many multiples of a cards value for a slab form a firm that cannot tell a CJ Mack from a Dover Mack.

I'm not a party to, nor a proponent of - alteration or fraud upon baseball cards. Please consider any of my earlier insinuations clarified. Excuse me now while I go flip through some of my favorite slabs, whether they be altered and unidentified - or clean.

Greg - My point here was more simply to the fact that if you can't tell, you can't tell. And that will continue to be problematic for many of us, no matter the stance of our piety on alteration and doctoring issues.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I insinuated that, yes. Whether or not I actually feel that was most of the time is another matter. So, regardless of how I feel as one collector - let's say it's not ok. What do you propose we do about it? I can hate doctors and trimmers and other alteration hacks all day long in theory.

I think to start, let's not promote companies that alter cards.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I think to start, let's not promote companies that alter cards.

I can agree with that, Al.