Current HOF election results

nolemmings · #1 01-25-2023, 11:04 PM

I don’t lie, douchebag. The point was argued that Rolen was not even the best player on his team, and I was asked if I thought Abreu was better on the Phillies and was told it was unfair to talk about the Cardinals because of Pujols. I pointed that Abreu was as good (better) and others were comparable the time he was in Philly– that’s not cherry picking–that’s looking at the seasons he played there. And answering that same question, I pointed out that Rolen was not even as good as Edmonds on his own team during his time in St. Louis, regardless of Pujols. Am I wrong? If so, does that make me a liar?

If you insist on some sort of victory in my bringing up Brogna, go right ahead champ. Also feel free to convince yourself that Rolen had HOF stature even on his own teams, much less in comparison to the rest of the league. I disagree. Give me the analytics to discount, ignore or disregard the fact that Rolen never finished in the top 10 of any remarkable category.

Vintagedeputy · #2 01-26-2023, 12:14 AM

I’m happy that Rolen got in, and just to give you something different to look at here’s my 2002 Rolen game used & autographed bat. I believe that he used this bat with the Phillies and then changed his number over after the trade and before his new batch of Cardinal labeled bats arrived.

abothebear · #3 01-26-2023, 08:41 AM

Just in case there is some confusion about my comment above, I did not mean it as a shot at anyone for bringing up Brogna or Lieberthal. I truly do enjoy that line of discussion.

But I don't see the relevance to the HOF of how a player ranks on his own team. Earl Combs was the seventh best player on the 27 Yankees. Good arguments against his HOF-ness can be made, but why would the excellence of his teammates be a mark against him?

I moved back to St. Louis in 2004, so I was able to watch or listen to almost every game of Rolen's in St. Louis from '04 to his unfortunate exile to Toronto. And I will argue the merits of Jim Edmonds all day too, but I think it is difficult to compare the two and say who was better than the other (and as I said, irrelevant to their respective HOF cases). Their positions are both demanding, but very different, and the style in which they played was very different. But from watching or listening to most games, if I had to choose, I think that Rolen's game and importance to the team would probably be harder to replace than Edmonds'. Not a knock against Edmonds - he was absolutely amazing during those seasons. One key reason, besides his defense, was that the offense he provided in the clean-up role came with minimal strikeouts. His tough and dangerous at-bats were a key factor in making that middle-of-the-order juggernaut run. It is harder to imagine these days when most power hitters strike out 25-30% of the time, but not-striking out in the middle of the order keeps the RBIs and Runs-scored falling like rain for everybody. Edmonds earned his numbers, but he was blessed to have two hitters in front of him that gave him a wealth of opportunity. All that is to say, Claiming Edmonds was better than Rolen on Rolen's own team is more complicated and debatable than it might seem based on some of the stats and MVP votes.

packs · #4 01-26-2023, 09:42 AM

The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.

Jim65 · #5 01-26-2023, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.

WAR is a tool and you are using it to say one player is absolutely better than another player. Rick Reuschel is the 37th ranked pitcher, higher than Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Don Drysdale, and Whitey Ford.

Does anyone really think Reuschel is better than all of those HOFers?

packs · #6 01-26-2023, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

WAR is a tool and you are using it to say one player is absolutely better than another player. Rick Reuschel is the 37th ranked pitcher, higher than Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Don Drysdale, and Whitey Ford.

Does anyone really think Reuschel is better than all of those HOFers?

No, I'm not. I used his positional ranking to demonstrate what makes him a HOFer over others who ranked far lower in their positional rankings. I chose three specific names that were mentioned and showed their positional ranks verses Rolen's.

I think unlike you I am looking at Rolen as a third baseman among third basemen and considering his candidacy at his position.

I don't think WAR is particularly useful when it comes to pitchers and I wouldn't cite the stat in discussing them. I would look at ERA+, and I think you'll find Reuschel has a lower ERA+ than anyone on your list.

nolemmings · #7 01-26-2023, 11:26 AM

The problem that sometimes arises in these threads is people picking and choosing what part of an argument they want to make and then disregarding the rest�sometimes innocently because they did not read every post or overlooked something said. My arguments against Scott Rolen were not based solely on the fact that I did not think he was even the best player on his team, although I do hold that belief. I quoted an article that led off with the reasons why he does not belong in the HOF, the first of which is that he did not finish in the top 10 in any meaningful category. That is extremely telling to me, and I have reiterated it, with no response that I have seen. While there were legitimate arguments as to whether Rolen was indeed the best on his team a time or two and that I was comparing apples to oranges, no one seems to rebut the fact that Rolen was not dominant and arguably not even superlative in any category.

A player�s ranking on his own team obviously does not by itself determine greatness, as pointed out and exemplified by Lou Gehrig and others. I understand that, in fact, I even stated that Graig Nettles is a better third baseman than Rolen, and most times Nettles was not even the second best player on his team. A quick comparison of the two is enlightening, in my opinion, but please understand that I do not necessarily consider Nettles a HOFer either, I merely point out his numbers and stress that he didn�t get more than about 8% of the HOF vote and dropped off the ballot early, yet Rolen, well, you know.

I will first admit that in looking at Rolen�s stats closely on Baseball Reference and not deferring to the author I had quoted, he did in fact finish in the top 10 in RBI twice, in runs scored twice, and OBP once, although never leading in anything. Graig Nettles once led the league in Home Runs, and finished in the top 10 five times. He matched Rolen�s two-time finishes in runs scored and one appearance on the leader board for OBP while three times making it there in RBI. Other similar measurements between the two players were roughly equal, although it should be remembered that Nettles hit 390 HR. As for advanced metrics, the two were nearly identical, but Nettles ranks just ahead of Rolen both in offensive WAR and defensive WAR. Yet Nettles never got a sniff at the HOF, and Rolen soon will be enshrined.

I acknowledge that I was a fan of Puff and was/am indifferent at best about Rolen. But I stand by my first statement on the subject in post #145� Scott Rolen: �Excellent player, borderline great, that's it IMO�.

Jim65 · #8 01-26-2023, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

No, I'm not. I used his positional ranking to demonstrate what makes him a HOFer over others who ranked far lower in their positional rankings. I chose three specific names that were mentioned and showed their positional ranks verses Rolen's.

I think unlike you I am looking at Rolen as a third baseman among third basemen and considering his candidacy at his position.

I don't think WAR is particularly useful when it comes to pitchers and I wouldn't cite the stat in discussing them. I would look at ERA+, and I think you'll find Reuschel has a lower ERA+ than anyone on your list.

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

brianp-beme · #9 01-26-2023, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

WAR is a tool and you are using it to say one player is absolutely better than another player. Rick Reuschel is the 37th ranked pitcher, higher than Jim Palmer, John Smoltz, Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Don Drysdale, and Whitey Ford.

Does anyone really think Reuschel is better than all of those HOFers?

All I know is I suddenly feel the desire start buying Rick Reuschel cards, especially the 1977 Topps card that also features his fellow flabby brother Paul.

Brian

bnorth · #10 01-26-2023, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

I never mentioned Rolen, you have no idea how I view him.

Ok, since you value ERA+ for pitchers, Johan Santana has a higher ERA+ 136 than, Randy Johnson 135, Greg Maddux 132, Sandy Koufax 131, Bob Gibson 127, Tom Seaver 127, Jim Palmer 125, and Nolan Ryan 112. Johan Santana must have been better than those HOFers, no?

Johan Santana was a beast. Watched him pitch many times in the old Metrodome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

All I know is I suddenly feel the desire start buying Rick Reuschel cards, especially the 1977 Topps card that also features his fellow flabby brother Paul.

Brian

Rick started out his minor league career here in the little town I live in. He went 9-2 in 1970 in a ballpark not too far from my house.

tod41 · #11 01-26-2023, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.

David Wright is not yet eligible. I think that explains him right now.

RCMcKenzie · #12 01-27-2023, 01:16 AM

I'm okay with Nettles and Ron Cey and Madlock going in. I would put Arod and Bonds and those guys too.

packs · #13 01-26-2023, 09:42 AM

Double post

G1911 · #14 01-26-2023, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I don�t lie, douchebag.

Then stop making claims of fact that are provable false, sir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The point was argued that Rolen was not even the best player on his team, and I was asked if I thought Abreu was better on the Phillies and was told it was unfair to talk about the Cardinals because of Pujols. I pointed that Abreu was as good (better) and others were comparable the time he was in Philly� that�s not cherry picking�that�s looking at the seasons he played there. And answering that same question, I pointed out that Rolen was not even as good as Edmonds on his own team during his time in St. Louis, regardless of Pujols. Am I wrong? If so, does that make me a liar?

Pujols was better. Edmonds and Abreu had some years that are better than some of Rolen's years. That, of course, is not and never has been a standard for the Hall. Almost no player has been the best player on his team every year. How many HOFers have not had other HOF teammates? To say that Edmonds was better than Rolen some years is true, as I said above if you read, it's just irrelevant to the topic and an illogical standard created only for one player and used only for that player because it suits what you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

If you insist on some sort of victory in my bringing up Brogna, go right ahead champ. Also feel free to convince yourself that Rolen had HOF stature even on his own teams, much less in comparison to the rest of the league. I disagree. Give me the analytics to discount, ignore or disregard the fact that Rolen never finished in the top 10 of any remarkable category.

It's not about victory, it's about actual fact. People who completely make up claims to fact that do not survive even a cursory check tend to get told that. Sucks.

Yogi Berra didn't lead the league much or at all either, and no one wants to keep him out. You could make a reasonable argument that he was never top of the league, but you don't need to lie and exaggerate in your claims to fact to do this - Rolen's ink is low.

But yet again, you have just made claims to fact that are completely false. "Give me the analytics to discount, ignore or disregard the fact that Rolen never finished in the top 10 of any remarkable category". This is completely and absolutely false, it is not a fact. Rolen did, in fact, finish in the top 10 in significant categories like slugging %, OPS+, on base %, dWAR, range factor, and many more. This information is publicly available and easily accessible to anyone here https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...olensc01.shtml in the Leaderboards section. Again, you are just completely making things up.

You can make a reasoned argument against Rolen, at best he's in the lower part of the Hall of the Fame. You don't need to keep lying to do it.

RCMcKenzie · #15 01-26-2023, 12:34 PM

Check out the JAWS stat for 3rd basemen. Rolen is 10th, everyone ahead of him is in the HOF except Beltre, 4th, who will make it. Nerttles is now the highest ranked not in the hall, at 12th, so, Rolen is in, so Nettles should go in. After Nettles you have Boyer, Bell, etc. Cey is 25th. Should Cey get in after these guys?

nolemmings · #16 01-26-2023, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Then stop making claims of fact that are provable false, sir.

Pujols was better. Edmonds and Abreu had some years that are better than some of Rolen's years. That, of course, is not and never has been a standard for the Hall. Almost no player has been the best player on his team every year. How many HOFers have not had other HOF teammates? To say that Edmonds was better than Rolen some years is true, as I said above if you read, it's just irrelevant to the topic and an illogical standard created only for one player and used only for that player because it suits what you want.

It's not about victory, it's about actual fact. People who completely make up claims to fact that do not survive even a cursory check tend to get told that. Sucks.

Yogi Berra didn't lead the league much or at all either, and no one wants to keep him out. You could make a reasonable argument that he was never top of the league, but you don't need to lie and exaggerate in your claims to fact to do this - Rolen's ink is low.

But yet again, you have just made claims to fact that are completely false. "Give me the analytics to discount, ignore or disregard the fact that Rolen never finished in the top 10 of any remarkable category". This is completely and absolutely false, it is not a fact. Rolen did, in fact, finish in the top 10 in significant categories like slugging %, OPS+, on base %, dWAR, range factor, and many more. This information is publicly available and easily accessible to anyone here https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...olensc01.shtml in the Leaderboards section. Again, you are just completely making things up.

You can make a reasoned argument against Rolen, at best he's in the lower part of the Hall of the Fame. You don't need to keep lying to do it.

It seems you insist on remaining a douchebag, although perhaps asshole is more applicable. I do not lie. If you take umbrage with the numbers, point them out and tell me how to interpret them differently. What you consider meaningful does not make it so, nor does it mean the HOF voters see it that way either.

I corrected my prior post as to Rolen�s top ten finishes, rather than deferring to an article I had quoted. I acknowledged that I have looked at the numbers more closely. I stated that Rolen made some such categories on occasion, but did not perform any better than Graig Nettles, who few here believe belongs in the HOF. As for others, again, I apparently don�t give them the same weight as �meaningful� as you do. That does not make me a liar. But, while looking at these, I see I missed one, Rolen did finish in the top ten in slugging percentage�once. He also once finished seventh in OBP+ if that�s important, but so did Nettles. What else is important or meaningful?

I already pointed out that Rolen finished behind Nettles in both offensive and defensive WAR. As for the �many more� significant categories, Rolen did finish in the top 10 in defensive range at 3b 10 times , if you think that is important� but Nettles did so 11 times. Double plays turned by a 3b? Rolen had 5 top ten finishes, Nettles had 10. Total zone runs at 3b�Rolen with 10, Nettles 9. Putouts at 3b�Rolen 6, Nettles 12. Assists? Rolen with 8, Nettles 12. Fielding % as 3bman? Rolen 9 top tens, Nettles 12. And so on.

So yes, in the more traditional offensive categories and I as I noted in my last post, Rolen did in fact make the top 10 in a few, one time, and a couple of them twice. Wow, hat�s off. As for the defensive numbers, he made it many times, but was outshined by Nettles in nearly all of them, which makes for a decent argument that they are not all that important to the HOF when a guy with such credentials and similar if not better offensive numbers gets kicked to the curb with single digit vote percentages.

etsmith · #17 01-26-2023, 08:07 PM

Johan looks good partly because his career was so short, he never reached the point where his career began to decline and lower his numbers. On top of that, Johan Santana would have been a Hall of Famer had his career been a bit longer. In fact I'm not sure Johan Santana shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame even as it is under what should be called the Koufax Rule.

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