PSA reholder issues - warning to submitters

[gonefishin]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

AGREED!

I recently sent in one card for a label correction. Came back to me within about two weeks. Corrected and of course n/c.

I have done dozens of re-holders over the years mostly for damaged cases. Never one single issue. Obviously, they can not change the grade on a re-holder order, only a review, and it can only stay the same or go up. Doesn't everyone know this?

I'm glad you haven't had a problem.

I've never submitted a re-holder to PSA or anyone else. However, when the CS representative at Beckett told me that my card was subject to regrading it gave me pause. My Braun was initially graded in 2002 - that's a long time ago. Why would it be subject to regrade if the case hasn't been tampered with, no sign of manipulation in any way, and it was there error in the data base compromise? Should they not have done due diligence at the initial time of grading? Isn't that why people have cards graded?

Maybe I'm missing something here. If a legitimate graded card owner simply wants to re-holder their card - which they pay for - why does it become questionable at all. Why not just simply re-holder the F'n card!

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

I'm glad you haven't had a problem.

I've never submitted a re-holder to PSA or anyone else. However, when the CS representative at Beckett told me that my card was subject to regrading it gave me pause. My Braun was initially graded in 2002 - that's a long time ago. Why would it be subject to regrade if the case hasn't been tampered with, no sign of manipulation in any way, and it was there error in the data base compromise? Should they not have done due diligence at the initial time of grading? Isn't that why people have cards graded?

Maybe I'm missing something here. If a legitimate graded card owner simply wants to re-holder their card - which they pay for - why does it become questionable at all. Why not just simply re-holder the F'n card!

Bingo!!! Someone who gets it!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Bingo!!! Someone who gets it!

+1

If enough people got together to bring action against things like this, it would be very interesting to see how a TPG would answer in court when asked to explain how someone that they charged to perform a service could later be told that the work they had previously done was now no good anymore. In other words, the original service those people paid for is basically being deemed worthless by the very party that originally performed the service/work.

Would be interesting to then see these same customers now asking for their money back from the TPG, through the courts, since the TPG itself is apparently admitting their work and original assigned grades cannot be relied upon. Would love to see an impartial jury made up of mostly non-collectors weigh the basic issue of charging people for something that is basically not worth anything then. The snake-oil salesman aspect of TPGs, and what they actually do, would hopefully become even more apparent to the public at large, especially those in the hobby itself.

But unfortunately, this will likely never happen, at least not anytime soon. Too many people/players in the collecting industry, supported by their lawyers, have too much money and value tied up in TPG graded cards and the concept of grading to let this happen. But on the other end of the spectrum, not enough money and value is involved for any government to see a potential risk to our overall economy, and therefore be willing to step in to actually regulate and correct the issues we're seeing and experiencing in the collecting hobby today. Just look at what is happening in the crypto-currency realm today, and the number of people now being negatively affected (ie: the amounts they're losing), and how it is actually starting to impact some of our overall economy. And even so, the governments are still somewhat slow to start acting to do something about it, that they should have jumped on to do something about a while ago.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I actually have to applaud China and their central bank for refusing to accept or allow any transactions in digital currencies, and banning all digital tokens, such as Bitcoin, effectively making crypto-currencies illegal in China. Had the same previously been done in the U.S., there would probably be a lot more happy people around today, including the likes of Robert Kraft, Giselle Bundchen, and Tom Brady, along with countless others.

Having said all that, it seems the only real possibility for any true correction of abuses in our hobby can only now be achieved by those that are in the hobby (true hobby collectors) banding together to form an overriding group/organization to force the other players in the hobby industry to now abide by the rules that the collectors propose and set down, not the other way around like it has been for decades now. But again, as I said earlier in this post, that will never happen any time soon either as too many people have too much money/value tied up in their graded card collections to want to chance that being negatively affected by something like that. The parties that have stepped into the hobby industry to manipulate the people involved so as to make money, have at least done one very, very smart thing, whether it was intentional or just pure dumb luck on their part. They allowed enough of the profit being made from the manipulations and such in the hobby to also be passed on or pour over to many people that are actual true collectors in the hobby, and thus make them liable for personal losses if the hobby industry "players" were to suddenly become subject to rules and regulations they did not set for themselves. By sharing a little bit of the wealth, so to speak, they effectively protect and preserve their own way of doing things, and the control they have over it.

[bnorth]

Just in case anyone would like to read my PSA reholdering fiasco with before and after pictures.
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=323198

[BobC]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just in case anyone would like to read my PSA reholdering fiasco with before and after pictures.
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=323198

Ben,

That sucks. And also, once again demonstrates the arbitrariness a TPG can exhibit towards their customers. How can they explain with a straight face that they originally graded a card a certain way (w/blue streak designation), then suddenly decide not to grade it that way (which they did with your card's initial submission), and then suddenly change back again to how they grade it (including the blue streak designation again)? That makes absolutely no logical sense, and appears to show how no one at such a TPG really knows what they are doing, and/or that there isn't any centralized, common order or control over how things are done, and absolutely shows their lack of any consistency and inability to accurately perform services they claim to be experts in.

Yet they had absolutely no problem or consistency issues in asking you for $25 for something they should have done correctly in the first place. Would love to see how a TPG would respond in court, under oath, if enough people having experienced the disregard and mistreatment you experienced got together and decided to take them to court, and ask for all their money back from the useless, worthless, and redundant services they were originally sold. Companies, like this, count on the fact that they are only getting $25, or some other somewhat nominal amount for things like this, and figure that no single individual will bother trying to go through the time and expense to fight them (and their corporate/business mercenaries....errrrr, lawyers) to try and get their money back. The trick is having companies like that, pissing off and taking unfair advantage of enough people, at a bad enough level, to the point that those people being harmed and taken advantage of finally decide to get together and do something about it. One can only hold out hope that that point is reached sooner, as opposed to later.

[bobbyw8469]

Ben that is totally amazing that PSA mucked that up. Seriously. I have no words.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just in case anyone would like to read my PSA reholdering fiasco with before and after pictures.
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=323198

This seems like a pretty simple case of PSA not being able to get their act together when it comes to the blue streak print variation. And it’s disappointing that they can’t figure it out.

Disclaimer: please don’t hate me for the following thoughts. I promise I’m not trying to suggest, promote, or celebrate the notion that PSA is somehow amazing and/or even merely competent.

At the same time, this specific situation seems to be less about PSA reholdering in general generating serious problems with potential re-grades, and instead seems to be more about PSA’s schizophrenic approach to this print variation, which happens to be wrapped up in a reholdering scenario.

[Snowman]

This is a pretty straight-forward policy. I don't understand the confusion. If a slab shows any signs of damage, it is more than reasonable to think that the card inside may have been damaged as well. If you drop a card in a PSA holder and it lands on a tile floor, cracking the corner of the slab, there's a pretty decent chance that the card inside might have sustained damage as its edges were jolted against the bumpers inside. I've seen countless cards inside PSA holders where the edges were damaged by the bumpers. If PSA receives a damaged slab from a customer, regardless of the extent of that damage, they are more than within their rights to want to examine the card again. And once they crack it out, the card just goes into grading without the bias of the label. A grader receives it raw just like any other card and gives it a grade.

The real problem here is that PSA has moved its own goalposts, not that they regrade cards in cracked slabs.

Just one more reason I own ~0 PSA holders with old certs. I buy the cards, not the holders. And nearly every single card in an old holder has been over-graded even by yesterday's standards, let alone today's.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is a pretty straight-forward policy. I don't understand the confusion. If a slab shows any signs of damage, it is more than reasonable to think that the card inside may have been damaged as well. If you drop a card in a PSA holder and it lands on a tile floor, cracking the corner of the slab, there's a pretty decent chance that the card inside might have sustained damage as its edges were jolted against the bumpers inside. I've seen countless cards inside PSA holders where the edges were damaged by the bumpers. If PSA receives a damaged slab from a customer, regardless of the extent of that damage, they are more than within their rights to want to examine the card again. And once they crack it out, the card just goes into grading without the bias of the label. A grader receives it raw just like any other card and gives it a grade.

The real problem here is that PSA has moved its own goalposts, not that they regrade cards in cracked slabs.

Just one more reason I own ~0 PSA holders with old certs. I buy the cards, not the holders. And nearly every single card in an old holder has been over-graded even by yesterday's standards, let alone today's.

The new certs are just as bad, and in most cases worse than old certs. When searching for a card I'm looking for it's more often than not (when comparing PSA old vs. PSA new) it's the old label that has the better centering and aesthetics than the new. Their grading in regards to centering is atrocious, and that's only if they give it the correct label to begin with. Seems like even the simplest of tasks is too much to ask of the new PSA.

[ZiggerZagger]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is a pretty straight-forward policy. I don't understand the confusion. If a slab shows any signs of damage, it is more than reasonable to think that the card inside may have been damaged as well. If you drop a card in a PSA holder and it lands on a tile floor, cracking the corner of the slab, there's a pretty decent chance that the card inside might have sustained damage as its edges were jolted against the bumpers inside. I've seen countless cards inside PSA holders where the edges were damaged by the bumpers. If PSA receives a damaged slab from a customer, regardless of the extent of that damage, they are more than within their rights to want to examine the card again. And once they crack it out, the card just goes into grading without the bias of the label. A grader receives it raw just like any other card and gives it a grade.

The real problem here is that PSA has moved its own goalposts, not that they regrade cards in cracked slabs.

Just one more reason I own ~0 PSA holders with old certs. I buy the cards, not the holders. And nearly every single card in an old holder has been over-graded even by yesterday's standards, let alone today's.

Travis, you make excellent points. The policy is pretty clear to my eyes as well.
Absent details from the OP about these 3 examples, I'm not sure there's any real evidence to disprove the rule on Reholdering here, as you've laid out.

No doubt PSA has toughened up their grading of raw cards generally, since late 2019/2020. For those of us who have submitted for many years, there were always palpable shifts in grading 'toughness' that would occur every so often. But the latest shift was really significant.

That said, If a submitter is careful in selecting what to send in, he could do very well with PSA Reviews.
For fun, I have some examples here (top row of pic) of PSA being fair, if not very lenient -- but only the Reggie was submitted in 2022. The Ruth was maybe 2018, and the Jordan probably 2016 or so?
All were submitted in-holder, not cracked out.

To your point about nearly every old holder being weak for grade, I've actually had a lot of success as above getting half-point (or with the MJ a full point) bump with nice cards in holders from the years when PSA didn't do half-grades.
It is successful less of the time than it should be these days, but to my eye I think that the Old Holder cards in the lower row would/should all get a 1/2 point bump if sent in.
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[glynparson]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Bingo!!! Someone who gets it!

Because the holder could have been damaged and this could damage the card thereby changing its condition. That is the only time I have had an issue with a reholder. Otherwise it’s a simple procedure like you’d expect. But to answer your question of hy it might not go simply, maybe they made an error the first time that is discovered in reholder They are human as shocking as that is they make mistakes. Expecting perfection is asinine. Of course that should be the goal but it’s not a reality. I know what would half this board do if they couldn’t complain about PSA and spout nonsense.

[BobbyStrawberry]

If it's just rumors, I understand the skepticism. If people have evidence, please share...