SGC is Riding the Wave

BobC · #1 01-03-2023, 06:49 PM

In regard to some of the seemingly positive, or at worst neutral, comments about CSG and their possible future place among the other TPGs I'm reading about in this thread, would love to hear some of the stories and reasons for changing of opinions, and/or otherwise hypocritical comments now being made in regard to CSG.

I remember in an earlier thread just after the announcement came out, and I believe also before they had become a paid advertiser here on Net54, discussing CSG's decision in partnering with PWCC and agreeing to do grading for PWCC's customers through them. And in my attempt to hopefully steer that earlier thread to an intelligent and civil discussion regarding CSG's business choices and supposed business model going forward, and if they could potentially grow enough to become legit, serious competitors of the other TPGs, I got the not atypical $hit directed at me by the usual type of suspects. And it is almost comical how some posts/comments between both threads are now literally 180 degrees opposite from where they were in the prior statements/opinions regarding CSG.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=318862,

And in regard to the main idea of the thread, I don't really see much change, and the pricing differences caused by factors such as Registries, seem to still be in place. I do believe I've started seeing more CSG slabbed cards on Ebay, and won't be surprised if they continue to creep up on the other TPGs, in both quantities showing up for sale, as well as the values they bring. I seem to remember seeing/reading that CSG supposedly does have a Registry of their own. If that is true, they need to keep grading many more cards before their Registry will begin to impact their card's resale value. I have stated before that a possible good move by CSG would be to see if they can somehow acquire, or at least partner-up with, SGC, and therefore be able to integrate SGC's grading population history with theirs, giving them both more Registry credibility, and allowing them to at least start to think about catching up to PSA in that regard. Still won't make up for the advantage PSA has built up over the years, or change the somewhat now ingrained hobby thinking/bias that PSA graded cards are worth more than other TPG graded cards, but at least it would be a start in the right direction.

Lorewalker · #2 01-03-2023, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

In regard to some of the seemingly positive, or at worst neutral, comments about CSG and their possible future place among the other TPGs I'm reading about in this thread, would love to hear some of the stories and reasons for changing of opinions, and/or otherwise hypocritical comments now being made in regard to CSG.

I remember in an earlier thread just after the announcement came out, and I believe also before they had become a paid advertiser here on Net54, discussing CSG's decision in partnering with PWCC and agreeing to do grading for PWCC's customers through them. And in my attempt to hopefully steer that earlier thread to an intelligent and civil discussion regarding CSG's business choices and supposed business model going forward, and if they could potentially grow enough to become legit, serious competitors of the other TPGs, I got the not atypical $hit directed at me by the usual type of suspects. And it is almost comical how some posts/comments between both threads are now literally 180 degrees opposite from where they were in the prior statements/opinions regarding CSG.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=318862,

And in regard to the main idea of the thread, I don't really see much change, and the pricing differences caused by factors such as Registries, seem to still be in place. I do believe I've started seeing more CSG slabbed cards on Ebay, and won't be surprised if they continue to creep up on the other TPGs, in both quantities showing up for sale, as well as the values they bring. I seem to remember seeing/reading that CSG supposedly does have a Registry of their own. If that is true, they need to keep grading many more cards before their Registry will begin to impact their card's resale value. I have stated before that a possible good move by CSG would be to see if they can somehow acquire, or at least partner-up with, SGC, and therefore be able to integrate SGC's grading population history with theirs, giving them both more Registry credibility, and allowing them to at least start to think about catching up to PSA in that regard. Still won't make up for the advantage PSA has built up over the years, or change the somewhat now ingrained hobby thinking/bias that PSA graded cards are worth more than other TPG graded cards, but at least it would be a start in the right direction.

Hi Bob,

I had posted in that thread you linked. I was puzzled by the CSG and PWCC relationship and I guess I still am. I think that PWCC still has a pretty large following so I get the attraction to establishing the working relationship but given that, as far as we know, PWCC is still under a federal investigation and the controversy of being booted off of eBay for shill bidding, I think CSG could have gone with someone else....anyone else, actually. The association by no means suggests CSG supports the fraudulent activity but as a new(ish) TPG you would think they might want to start off working with cleaner entities...assuming there are some.

CSG seems to have so far have a very clean cut approach to the hobby and the parent company is highly respected. If any of their subsidiary grading companies have been subject to any unethical conduct that would be news to me. I am not sure an ethical grading company can thrive in our hobby but if one can, CSG seems to be the only candidate.

Chase

BobC · #3 01-03-2023, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Hi Bob,

I had posted in that thread you linked. I was puzzled by the CSG and PWCC relationship and I guess I still am. I think that PWCC still has a pretty large following so I get the attraction to establishing the working relationship but given that, as far as we know, PWCC is still under a federal investigation and the controversy of being booted off of eBay for shill bidding, I think CSG could have gone with someone else....anyone else, actually. The association by no means suggests CSG supports the fraudulent activity but as a new(ish) TPG you would think they might want to start off working with cleaner entities...assuming there are some.

CSG seems to have so far have a very clean cut approach to the hobby and the parent company is highly respected. If any of their subsidiary grading companies have been subject to any unethical conduct that would be news to me. I am not sure an ethical grading company can thrive in our hobby but if one can, CSG seems to be the only candidate.

Chase

Hey Chase,

I remember, and for the record, you are not one of the people I was referring to with the change in thinking in regard to CSG. LOL

Like you, I was surprised with them when they linked up with PWCC also, but thought it would still be interesting to try to civilly discuss why they would do such a thing. I agree that on the surface, such a partnership didn't make sense for a newcomer like CSG, and doing so would likely not help their business or reputation. The anti-CSG comments and sentiment in that other thread were very quick to come. I was thinking that by agreeing to work with PWCC, CSG was looking to get as many graded cards in their holders, and then out in the hobby, as quickly as possible. If you want to compete against the TPG big boys, you need to get a presence in the hobby and get your name out there as much as possible, right? And probably the best way to do that is to have as many of your graded cards circulating in the hobby marketplace as possible. And even if initially sold through PWCC, once those cards in CSG holders are out there in the marketplace, no one really remembers or knows where they originally came from, do they? And as others have mentioned in this and other threads, they're planning to withhold doing anything with CSG until they see them getting more hobby acceptance and have their cards start being listed in more auctions by some of the better, more well-known AHs. Which makes perfect, logical sense. And all the more reason it makes even more sense as to why CSG would have ever agreed to such a deal with PWCC, even given PWCC's history, reputation, and ongoing FBI investigation. CSG was simply looking to get as many people's cards graded, as fast as they can and out in the marketplace, and it appears they took an educated, business risk, to partner-up with PWCC in doing so. And as has been noted by many forum members to date that it appears no repercussions are coming down on PWCC from their alleged wrongful activities (at least not yet), it seems CSG might have made a smart business decision after all.

But like you and others, I also hope that they do not later on get found to have engaged or collaborated in any conspiracy or other illegal activities, and end up doing a much better job than the other TPGs did in detecting and stopping the grading and encapsulation of altered/doctored cards.

The comments and automatic denigration of CSG by some members in that earlier thread was appalling. They simply tried, convicted and condemned CSG as being no good and literally engaging in criminal activity, with absolutely no evidence, proof, or indication of any wrongdoing, other than they agreed to work with and grade cards for PWCC customers. Meanwhile, those same people who immediately condemned and vowed to never use CSG, failed to make any similar statements about pretty much all the other TPGs that are actually known to have worked with PWCC before, and had been found to have encapsulated altered/doctored cards supposedly funneled through to them by PWCC.

I'm still holding out hope that CSG might be a positive influence in the TPG arena, and at least keep the other TPGs as honest, fair, and affordable for those that want to still use them, as possible. A competing Registry against the current de facto monopoly Registry in the hobby would be a big positive also, IMO. Only time and the future will tell. But by the lack of almost immediate, blistering comments, denigrating CSG when mentioned in this thread, it sure seems they're slowly gaining some overall acceptance in the hobby after all.

Hope you had a great Christmas and New Year's Chase.

Lorewalker · #4 01-04-2023, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Hey Chase,

I remember, and for the record, you are not one of the people I was referring to with the change in thinking in regard to CSG. LOL

Like you, I was surprised with them when they linked up with PWCC also, but thought it would still be interesting to try to civilly discuss why they would do such a thing. I agree that on the surface, such a partnership didn't make sense for a newcomer like CSG, and doing so would likely not help their business or reputation. The anti-CSG comments and sentiment in that other thread were very quick to come. I was thinking that by agreeing to work with PWCC, CSG was looking to get as many graded cards in their holders, and then out in the hobby, as quickly as possible. If you want to compete against the TPG big boys, you need to get a presence in the hobby and get your name out there as much as possible, right? And probably the best way to do that is to have as many of your graded cards circulating in the hobby marketplace as possible. And even if initially sold through PWCC, once those cards in CSG holders are out there in the marketplace, no one really remembers or knows where they originally came from, do they? And as others have mentioned in this and other threads, they're planning to withhold doing anything with CSG until they see them getting more hobby acceptance and have their cards start being listed in more auctions by some of the better, more well-known AHs. Which makes perfect, logical sense. And all the more reason it makes even more sense as to why CSG would have ever agreed to such a deal with PWCC, even given PWCC's history, reputation, and ongoing FBI investigation. CSG was simply looking to get as many people's cards graded, as fast as they can and out in the marketplace, and it appears they took an educated, business risk, to partner-up with PWCC in doing so. And as has been noted by many forum members to date that it appears no repercussions are coming down on PWCC from their alleged wrongful activities (at least not yet), it seems CSG might have made a smart business decision after all.

But like you and others, I also hope that they do not later on get found to have engaged or collaborated in any conspiracy or other illegal activities, and end up doing a much better job than the other TPGs did in detecting and stopping the grading and encapsulation of altered/doctored cards.

The comments and automatic denigration of CSG by some members in that earlier thread was appalling. They simply tried, convicted and condemned CSG as being no good and literally engaging in criminal activity, with absolutely no evidence, proof, or indication of any wrongdoing, other than they agreed to work with and grade cards for PWCC customers. Meanwhile, those same people who immediately condemned and vowed to never use CSG, failed to make any similar statements about pretty much all the other TPGs that are actually known to have worked with PWCC before, and had been found to have encapsulated altered/doctored cards supposedly funneled through to them by PWCC.

I'm still holding out hope that CSG might be a positive influence in the TPG arena, and at least keep the other TPGs as honest, fair, and affordable for those that want to still use them, as possible. A competing Registry against the current de facto monopoly Registry in the hobby would be a big positive also, IMO. Only time and the future will tell. But by the lack of almost immediate, blistering comments, denigrating CSG when mentioned in this thread, it sure seems they're slowly gaining some overall acceptance in the hobby after all.

Hope you had a great Christmas and New Year's Chase.

Hi Bob,

Thank you and I hope you enjoyed your holiday season as well. I understand exactly the point you make about CSG needing to become more of a household name in the hobby and the only way to do that is to get their holders into the marketplace. TPG is nothing new and being the newest in a crowded field, even given some of the more popular mom and pop TPG, is not easy.

With as much public and law enforcement scrutiny that PWCC is under I doubt there was or is anything nefarious about CSG's "partnering" with PWCC. I am sure many things were considered with the pros and cons of pursuing the working relationship with PWCC as well as other options CSG could have pursued. It was a bold move. Wrote that in the other thread and writing it again. I do not follow PWCC auctions...never did when they were on eBay either so not sure how many CSG cards moved through their hands.

I would like to think that our hobby is an efficient one and think that given CCG's reputation in many other marketplaces, that CSG would have been just fine to do nothing but promote their service but obviously that was not enough. I am sure they were busy grading material but the key was to make sure the stuff they were slabbing was moving into the marketplace and not just siting in personal collections all over the US.

The risk CSG runs by putting their slabs into the marketplace via an auction as the newest TPG is that CSG's more accurately graded cards would sell for less thereby establishing a lower price point. The alternative, which is like watching paint dry, would have been to get fewer cards into the marketplace but sell them through a more conventional retail environment where the price point is established by the seller, not the buyer, as happens in any auction format. There is no short cut for time. I think it just takes time to build a brand. It does not help that all TPG are competing with the PSA Registry which clearly means you lose a considerable portion of the market.

One thing CSG should consider, if they are going to create a registry, is to allow some minority portion of the collectors' sets to be made up of other TPG cards. Maybe require all or most of the key cards to be CSG graded which might encourage crossovers. There has to be some incentive to the collectors so just not sure what that is. It might not topple PSA's registry but it might invite some of their faithful to consider CSG.

Take care,
Chase

Snowman · #5 01-05-2023, 03:49 AM

SGC cards do not sell for the same price as PSA slabs in the same grade. Pretty much ever. The only exception to that is when the card inside has tremendous eye-appeal. But it is the card that makes up that delta, not the holder, when it happens. But if you take the same exact card and put it in a PSA holder and then put it in an SGC holder, with the same grade, it's always going to sell for more in the PSA holder (at least currently).

The primary reason we are seeing so many more cards now in SGC and CSG holders though is not just because of the turnaround times. PSA has recently moved the goalposts on us (again), and they are now grading vintage cards with completely laughable grades. EX-MT cards in 4 holders, EX cards in 3 holders. NM-MT cards in 5 holders. It's absolutely absurd. So people have just stopped sending them cards because they're going to get a higher grade at SGC now. I can't tell you how many cards I've submitted to PSA lately that I immediately crack out upon receiving them back and then just send them off to SGC where they get 1 to 2 full grade bumps. People overlook the fact that an SGC 6 is going to outsell a PSA 4 every time.

bobbyw8469 · #6 01-05-2023, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

SGC cards do not sell for the same price as PSA slabs in the same grade. Pretty much ever. The only exception to that is when the card inside has tremendous eye-appeal. But it is the card that makes up that delta, not the holder, when it happens. But if you take the same exact card and put it in a PSA holder and then put it in an SGC holder, with the same grade, it's always going to sell for more in the PSA holder (at least currently).

The primary reason we are seeing so many more cards now in SGC and CSG holders though is not just because of the turnaround times. PSA has recently moved the goalposts on us (again), and they are now grading vintage cards with completely laughable grades. EX-MT cards in 4 holders, EX cards in 3 holders. NM-MT cards in 5 holders. It's absolutely absurd. So people have just stopped sending them cards because they're going to get a higher grade at SGC now. I can't tell you how many cards I've submitted to PSA lately that I immediately crack out upon receiving them back and then just send them off to SGC where they get 1 to 2 full grade bumps. People overlook the fact that an SGC 6 is going to outsell a PSA 4 every time.

Agreed. Whatever happened to simple competency?

ullmandds · #7 01-05-2023, 06:12 AM

" I can't tell you how many cards I've submitted to PSA lately that I immediately crack out upon receiving them back and then just send them off to SGC where they get 1 to 2 full grade bumps. "

Sounds like NOT sending more cards to PSA would be the logical solution??

parkplace33 · #8 01-05-2023, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

SGC cards do not sell for the same price as PSA slabs in the same grade. Pretty much ever. The only exception to that is when the card inside has tremendous eye-appeal. But it is the card that makes up that delta, not the holder, when it happens. But if you take the same exact card and put it in a PSA holder and then put it in an SGC holder, with the same grade, it's always going to sell for more in the PSA holder (at least currently).

The primary reason we are seeing so many more cards now in SGC and CSG holders though is not just because of the turnaround times. PSA has recently moved the goalposts on us (again), and they are now grading vintage cards with completely laughable grades. EX-MT cards in 4 holders, EX cards in 3 holders. NM-MT cards in 5 holders. It's absolutely absurd. So people have just stopped sending them cards because they're going to get a higher grade at SGC now. I can't tell you how many cards I've submitted to PSA lately that I immediately crack out upon receiving them back and then just send them off to SGC where they get 1 to 2 full grade bumps. People overlook the fact that an SGC 6 is going to outsell a PSA 4 every time.