Steve Carlton Rookie worth so little

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

When I was a new baseball card collector, I had a friend who told me I shouldn't waste my time collecting Nolan Ryan cards because he would never be considered a great pitcher or make "The Hall" because all he did was get a lot of strikeouts. He had never been a 20 game winner, and would be considered a common by the time he retired. I stupidly listened to him.

I started collecting in 1986, buying the Topps packs at the grocery store. At the time, Ryan was of course a known commodity and a star player, but I would not have considered him a superstar, or among the very elite pitchers of the game. The speed was of course impressive, but he was inconsistent. He might pitch a one-hit shutout one night, and then give up 6 runs and lose in his next start. All that started to change for Nolan along about 1988-89, when he went to the Texas Rangers and everyone suddenly realized the precipice of all the records he was on the verge of passing - 5,000K's, 300 wins, and then of course by the time he unexpectedly added two more no-hitters for the Rangers, he was a God. His '68 Topps RC - which had been perhaps a $250 card in nice shape in 1988 - was suddenly worth well over a grand in 1992.

My point is not that Ryan is not a fantastic or even legendary pitcher, so much as it is just to point out that he's more noteworthy for how freakishly unique he is. The strikeout and no-hitter records will not ever be seriously approached, let alone equaled again. But remember at the end of the day those things alone don't win ballgames or lift teams. Ryan to me would make a super interesting study of how he was regarded over time. He may have been legendary in the 1990's on - but for the prime of his career in the 70's and early 80's you could generally make the argument that he wasn't even consistently among the top 3-4 pitchers in baseball.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I started collecting in 1986, buying the Topps packs at the grocery store. At the time, Ryan was of course a known commodity and a star player, but I would not have considered him a superstar, or among the very elite pitchers of the game. The speed was of course impressive, but he was inconsistent. He might pitch a one-hit shutout one night, and then give up 6 runs and lose in his next start. All that started to change for Nolan along about 1988-89, when he went to the Texas Rangers and everyone suddenly realized the precipice of all the records he was on the verge of passing - 5,000K's, 300 wins, and then of course by the time he unexpectedly added two more no-hitters for the Rangers, he was a God. His '68 Topps RC - which had been perhaps a $250 card in nice shape in 1988 - was suddenly worth well over a grand in 1992.

My point is not that Ryan is not a fantastic or even legendary pitcher, so much as it is just to point out that he's more noteworthy for how freakishly unique he is. The strikeout and no-hitter records will not ever be seriously approached, let alone equaled again. But remember at the end of the day those things alone don't win ballgames or lift teams. Ryan to me would make a super interesting study of how he was regarded over time. He may have been legendary in the 1990's on - but for the prime of his career in the 70's and early 80's you could generally make the argument that he wasn't even consistently among the top 3-4 pitchers in baseball.

I agree with everything you said (only difference is I started collecting in '87 not '86).

Ryan never won a Cy Young, but he did finish in the top 5 six times. He got is his first Cy Young votes when he was 25 and amazingly finished 5th when he was 42.

One thing I did not know is that he holds the all time record for fewest hits allowed per 9 innings at 6.6 He let up 3,923 hits in his career and walked 2,795 which is of course also a record.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I agree with everything you said (only difference is I started collecting in '87 not '86).

Ryan never won a Cy Young, but he did finish in the top 5 six times. He got is his first Cy Young votes when he was 25 and amazingly finished 5th when he was 42.

One thing I did not know is that he holds the all time record for fewest hits allowed per 9 innings at 6.6 He let up 3,923 hits in his career and walked 2,795 which is of course also a record.

Yeah, the fewest hits allowed stat is impressive until it dawns on you that doesn't speak to walks. If you look instead at total men allowed on base vs. men that got hits off of him, the figure quickly loses its luster.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Yeah, the fewest hits allowed stat is impressive until it dawns on you that doesn't speak to walks. If you look instead at total men allowed on base vs. men that got hits off of him, the figure quickly loses its luster.

There are some interesting characters on the fewest hits per 9 innings list. I would expect Koufax at # 2 on the list, but Sid Fernandez at #4????

Also, nice to see Babe Ruth at #16 on the list.

On the all time WHIP list, Nolan Ryan ranks 307th with a 1.2473. Guess who ranks just ahead of him? Steve Carlton at 1.2467

I would have thought Carlton would have fared better.

[ALBB]

Yea, at one time that Carlton rookie was a key to the set..back then I recall Morgan rookie and Hunter rookie was valued much lower the the Carlton

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ALBB

Yea, at one time that Carlton rookie was a key to the set..back then I recall Morgan rookie and Hunter rookie was valued much lower the the Carlton

It's funny to look back - I have several old issues of "Baseball Cards" Magazine, the Krause publication when I think Bob Lemke was at the helm. One is from 1981, and the other 1985. In at least the '85 guide, the Carlton RC is valued higher than almost any card in the set - including like Mantle, Mays, Koufax etc. I think Carlton was listed at $85 and Mantle $22, or something. Boy have things changed there. It just gives you some insight into the higher regard Carlton was held in then.

Same with the '71 set - all through the 80's - the Steve Garvey RC was the money card there. While I think you could argue that card is still a key to the set, it's had quite a fall from the #1 position in the set over the last 20-30 years.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I would have thought Carlton would have fared better.

Carlton would have fared better had he hung it up when the Phillies released him instead of bopping around a few more AL teams for 2 more years. If you buy what you read, he had an agent that basically fleeced him and he needed the money.

[Kutcher55]

There are legit reasons why Ryan's RC should be worth considerably more than Carlton's. Ryan is the K king, and he did it with style. 7 no-hitters. He's also become almost an iconic symbol associated with Texas tough. He's also more handsome and personable than Carlton ever was.

Relative to his accomplishments, the Carlton RC is undervalued. I would put him in the Frank Robinson camp in terms of that. Also, it's not a particularly attractive RC despite it coming from an attractive set. I think it's possible the Fritz Ackley unibrow also has a detrimental impact on the value.