Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[Lorewalker]

I don't think anyone is necessarily disputing that the Wagner 8 absolutely did not or could not have come off a printer's scrap or salesman sample sheet in the 50s but absent the provenance it seems to be a leap to state that it is therefore possibly a counterfeit.

I have collected cards for my entire adult life...in dog years I cannot even count that high...I have never seen a counterfeit of a vintage card that was remotely good enough to fool me. I have never handled T206 Wagners but plenty of other expensive high profile cards. Obviously one could argue that maybe I have handled plenty of counterfeits that were so good that I could not detect them but I honestly doubt that.

I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to do great counterfeits of vintage cards, even today, let alone in 1950. Also have no idea if it is easier to counterfeit memorabilia than it would be cards. I know nothing about memorabilia. Just seems to me that if great counterfeits could be done today they would have been all over the hobby by now. I think when you have handled enough vintage cardboard you would not be fooled and something in the card would tip you off.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I don't think anyone is necessarily disputing that the Wagner 8 absolutely did not or could not have come off a printer's scrap or salesman sample sheet in the 50s but absent the provenance it seems to be a leap to state that it is therefore possibly a counterfeit.

I have collected cards for my entire adult life...in dog years I cannot even count that high...I have never seen a counterfeit of a vintage card that was remotely good enough to fool me. I have never handled T206 Wagners but plenty of other expensive high profile cards. Obviously one could argue that maybe I have handled plenty of counterfeits that were so good that I could not detect them but I honestly doubt that.

I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to do great counterfeits of vintage cards, even today, let alone in 1950. Also have no idea if it is easier to counterfeit memorabilia than it would be cards. I know nothing about memorabilia. Just seems to me that if great counterfeits could be done today they would have been all over the hobby by now. I think when you have handled enough vintage cardboard you would not be fooled and something in the card would tip you off.

They could be made today. But it's still a fair amount of effort, and at least the paper stock isn't something you can just pick up at a craft store. (I tried a few, nothing they carry is the right thickness.)

And most fakers are lazy. Why spend a lot of money and effort to produce a card that will be closely examined, when you can print something that will pass from 10 feet on your home printer and sell it as "maybe a reprint" for stupid money and no scrutiny? And do that hundreds of times over.

But I do think Corey has a point, with a Wagner being a million + the attraction of making a great fake will draw someone with the necessary skills. And I have doubts that the examination PSA or SGC might do will be enough.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by steve B

They could be made today. But it's still a fair amount of effort, and at least the paper stock isn't something you can just pick up at a craft store. (I tried a few, nothing they carry is the right thickness.)

And most fakers are lazy. Why spend a lot of money and effort to produce a card that will be closely examined, when you can print something that will pass from 10 feet on your home printer and sell it as "maybe a reprint" for stupid money and no scrutiny? And do that hundreds of times over.

But I do think Corey has a point, with a Wagner being a million + the attraction of making a great fake will draw someone with the necessary skills. And I have doubts that the examination PSA or SGC might do will be enough.

In the future I am confident there are a lot of things that will be able to be done that cannot be done today. My comment was about the present and past.

I know nothing about counterfeiting but I know humans are greedy and look for any angle to make a buck. I stick to what I wrote--I have yet to see a counterfeit vintage card that almost fooled me. My guess is that it would be far easier to counterfeit a modern card than it would be to counterfeit a vintage card.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

In the future I am confident there are a lot of things that will be able to be done that cannot be done today. My comment was about the present and past.

I know nothing about counterfeiting but I know humans are greedy and look for any angle to make a buck. I stick to what I wrote--I have yet to see a counterfeit vintage card that almost fooled me. My guess is that it would be far easier to counterfeit a modern card than it would be to counterfeit a vintage card.

The thing with high end counterfeits is that several things need to happen for it to be possible.

1) You need someone with the ability to do the actual counterfeiting work.
2) You need the equipment or a place to use it with no one else knowing about it.
3) Someone who is a scammer.
4) Knowledge of the card market.
5) Materials to do the work.
6) All this plus a little more needs to be done by as few people as possible to keep the secret.

Getting everything needed by someone who is a scammer would leave a small pool of people. There is a known ring in NJ that has been counterfeiting cards and then forging autos on them for years. So it is not like it isn't being done but few are doing it with any quality.

Personally if counterfeiting T206s I would do the Red Cobb. It is not rare and commands a decent price with a plain easy design. For T206s the only big thing would be a CNC machine to make the limestone plates. That and someone that can program the CNC machine to make the plates.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The thing with high end counterfeits is that several things need to happen for it to be possible.

1) You need someone with the ability to do the actual counterfeiting work.
2) You need the equipment or a place to use it with no one else knowing about it.
3) Someone who is a scammer.
4) Knowledge of the card market.
5) Materials to do the work.
6) All this plus a little more needs to be done by as few people as possible to keep the secret.

Getting everything needed by someone who is a scammer would leave a small pool of people. There is a known ring in NJ that has been counterfeiting cards and then forging autos on them for years. So it is not like it isn't being done but few are doing it with any quality.

Personally if counterfeiting T206s I would do the Red Cobb. It is not rare and commands a decent price with a plain easy design. For T206s the only big thing would be a CNC machine to make the limestone plates. That and someone that can program the CNC machine to make the plates.

Ben, what is this ring counterfeiting?