Do you utilize a vault service for your cards?

[BobbyStrawberry]

No, and I don't plan to.

[Fred]

Can someone sum up what the vault service is for? I don't understand the concept.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fred

Can someone sum up what the vault service is for? I don't understand the concept.

It is for legally avoiding paying taxes. At least that is my take on it, from all of the marketing I have seen. And it could be convenient if you are a flipper, I guess. And of course the Vault owner is going to want to sell the cards *as mentioned below.

edited for clarification
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[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Fred

Can someone sum up what the vault service is for? I don't understand the concept.

I don’t use vault services. I don’t want any third party having control of my cards….that’s just me. Don’t buy online so the sales tax is no big deal to me. I also don’t utilize auctions to sell my cards so another no-big deal for me.
The way I see things the concept is to save you the sales tax burden while giving you their platform as a most likely first place you use when you sell or there are obligations to the said platform first and foremost. So an auction house offering this isn’t just doing it for your benefit, trust me it’s working for them. They’re benefiting. Never underestimate the power and reach of fancy marketing.

[Snapolit1]

When I buy something I possess it. End of story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No thank you. And if I owe sales tax on a purchase, so be it.

[raulus]

Vaults are all the rage these days. Anybody who’s anybody has a vault. All the cool kids are getting one. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3, although there’s probably another dozen or so other vaults out there:

1) PWCC - pretty sure they started advertising about 2 years before they actually launched it. They might have been the first vault.

2) eBay

3) Goldin/Collector’s Universe

Not surprised that there aren’t many vault users around here, at least few who want to admit it.

I suspect that the charms of the vault are mostly lost on this crowd:

1) Avoid paying sales tax. I suspect that if someone around here is into the vault, this is probably a big factor. I understand that the vaults are all located in states with no sales tax, so if you ship your items there when you buy off eBay or another site that charges sales tax, you avoid it this way. Being in Oregon with zero sales tax, this isn’t a factor for me.

2) No shipping if you’re buying from the same platform. So if you’re buying from PWCC and sending to the PWCC vault then you pay no shipping. I think I’ve heard a similar pitch from the other vaults, so I’m pretty sure this is a thing.

3) Discounted fees if you sell your vault items through their channel. Discount varies depending on the venue, but could be attractive, particularly if you’re buying an item with the intent to flip it in the near future.

4) You don’t have to pay for storage and insurance, or at least maybe less. Each vault has somewhat different cost structure. My recollection is that early on, most of the vaults were advertising very low fees. And then because I think they weren’t getting many takers, to incentivize people to use it, they have switched to lower and/or no fees. They advertise that your items are safe in fancy bank-like vaults with lots of security. And they claim to be insured.

5) You can borrow cold hard cash against your items. Some/most/all of these vaults offer a lending program. My experience is that the loans are pretty short term. And they’re not cheap. You can usually only borrow a fraction of what your item is worth. But I guess if you want more debt in your life, this gives you a chance to go out and buy more items without having to sell the ones you just bought.

6) They take some nice fancy pictures of your items, and you can enjoy them that way. Who needs to see it in person when you have a nice picture instead!!???

Not surprisingly, I don’t use a vault. I could see the sales tax as a factor if I didn’t live in Oregon. Obviously I’m not a fan of not having, holding, and enjoying my items in person. Almost everything that I buy is something that I’m planning to hold for decades. Even if I do list it as available for sale, because I’m asking museum prices most of the time, I don’t actually expect anyone to actually buy it.

And fundamentally, I don’t trust any of these vaults to actually take care of my collection. I think there are a lot of unresolved issues around what happens if the company goes under or suffers from a big robbery, and whether I can really get my items back, or whether I would be a beneficiary under the insurance. For a big shop, maybe it doesn’t seem quite as scary, but even big shops have failed in the recent past, with insalubrious effects for anyone who entrusted their stuff to that shop.

So thanks but no thanks. For a flipper, the vault might seem more exciting. And maybe just maybe the sales tax exemption is enough where you might use it sometimes. Just until you can ship it to your cousin who lives in a state with no sales tax.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

Right. I’ve heard stories from others that if you try to get your items out of the vault shortly after acquisition, then you have to pay the sales tax anyway. Not sure if there is a time limit for how long you need to leave them in, or if your only hope is to sell directly from the vault, or eventually ship to a state with no sales tax.

[russkcpa]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

When I lived in Massachusetts we ran into "use tax" concerns many times with clients purchasing high value items in New Hampshire (a no sales tax state) and bringing them over the border as an end user to Massachusetts. It is virtually impossible to police unless you have MA DOR agents at the border. After the SJC ruled on South Dakota v Wayfair it opened the flood gates for online sales from large sellers who have "nexus" in each state to collect and remit sales tax (e.g. Amazon ) Now with Ebay collecting and remitting sales tax on behalf of sellers it is a bonanza for all states.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

And fundamentally, I don’t trust any of these vaults to actually take care of my collection.

I get the concept, I get being an investor, and I get avoiding as many taxes as one legally can. But seriously, how are people stupid enough to leave their valuable property with PWCC, an almost openly criminal enterprise? The odds that PWCC ends up 'mishandling' property or that the government finally puts a stop to their ring and your cards go missing or are tied up in court are fairly high. PWCC's vault is about the only way that trusting Goldin instead makes sense. The victim of a crime is never to blame, but it will be hard to sympathize much when one of these vaults ran by dirty profiteers and/or fraudsters ends up blowing up.

[bmattioli]

My father always told me don't tell anyone what you have..

[russkcpa]

Originally Posted by G1911

I get the concept, I get being an investor, and I get avoiding as many taxes as one legally can. But seriously, how are people stupid enough to leave their valuable property with PWCC, an almost openly criminal enterprise? The odds that PWCC ends up 'mishandling' property or that the government finally puts a stop to their ring and your cards go missing or are tied up in court are fairly high. PWCC's vault is about the only way that trusting Goldin instead makes sense. The victim of a crime is never to blame, but it will be hard to sympathize much when one of these vaults ran by dirty profiteers and/or fraudsters ends up blowing up.

You use very harsh language describing PWCC. Perhaps you should look up libel and slander in the dictionary. I have no beef with the PWCC vault and think their sample vault inventory looks better than Goldin.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

When I buy something I possess it. End of story.

LOL, that's it in a nutshell for me too. I guess we're funny that way.