Cello Pack Fake?

[irv]

Looks like some of these are now being graded so some still believe these are real factory sealed packs I guess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmqRP6-HDM

[steve B]

Originally Posted by irv

Looks like some of these are now being graded so some still believe these are real factory sealed packs I guess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmqRP6-HDM

The flip said XRPG... not a company I've ever heard of.

Those christmas packs are strange, I bought one that was a 58, because it had a high number on the back. Back then it was only about as much as the cards inside would be if they were all commons.

Of the newer "cellos", I think the ones with the modern cards might be from a small repacker, as the cardboard top looks like it was printed by a print shop.
The others really do look like they were just done on a computer printer.

One of the flea markets I went to used to have a dealer that would repack commons and the occasional minor star into "packs" mostly using the larger team set penny sleeves that had a resealable tab. He made his own header cards, which were always on the back and not good enough to fool anyone. Always a minor star or red sox card on top, and the rest commons.

[ALR-bishop]

I mentioned that Murphy has said his original Christmas pack find involved only 53-63. Later sellers claimed you could distinguish packs from the original find by the staples and position of the candy canes on the wrapper.

Someday I hope info surfaces on who produced the first of these, when they did so, and if and when they were ever really available at any retail store.

[jchcollins]

"I love baseball cards" on YouTube has some videos on his channel that show what I believe are some "original" Christmas racks. I was skeptical at first, but he has had multiple instances of finding (nice) cards including stars that are not on the top, and other valuable cards. One '56 rack has a Mantle showing, one has a '55 Aaron visible with the back showing, and in another he pulled the '52 Topps Joe Page with the Sain error back - that was not showing on the top. That one was sent off for grading and I believe returned a PSA 5. That's like a > $1k card, so hard to believe anyone would pack a remake with something like that.

Here is one of his videos with a '60 Topps rack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxCes-ejGo0

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

"I love baseball cards" on YouTube has some videos on his channel that show what I believe are some "original" Christmas racks. I was skeptical at first, but he has had multiple instances of finding (nice) cards including stars that are not on the top, and other valuable cards. One '56 rack has a Mantle showing, one has a '55 Aaron visible with the back showing, and in another he pulled the '52 Topps Joe Page with the Sain error back - that was not showing on the top. That one was sent off for grading and I believe returned a PSA 5. That's like a > $1k card, so hard to believe anyone would pack a remake with something like that.

Here is one of his videos with a '60 Topps rack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxCes-ejGo0

Yeah idk about that 60 pack...that Ryne Duren card was well loved for many a year...

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Yeah idk about that 60 pack...that Ryne Duren card was well loved for many a year...

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

I may not have picked the best video to show. That stuff is so hit or miss - I wouldn't touch unopened vintage myself with a 10-foot pole - though I do find it intriguing to watch what others do.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I mentioned that Murphy has said his original Christmas pack find involved only 53-63. Later sellers claimed you could distinguish packs from the original find by the staples and position of the candy canes on the wrapper.

Someday I hope info surfaces on who produced the first of these, when they did so, and if and when they were ever really available at any retail store.

I have a 1955 Xmas pack from Mark Murphy got it around 2000. Still have print out of ebay sale. Willie Mays is center card on back. Still have it.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by irv

Looks like some of these are now being graded so some still believe these are real factory sealed packs I guess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmqRP6-HDM

Just as Steve said, fake grader and fake pack.

I am in the camp that not a one of these is real and with no even hearsay that these were ever seen in a discount store, I think the repack story is hooey. I think every single one is garbage.

This myth has been going on since the early 80's when I first saw some show up on the tables at shows of the same folks that did Sharpie touch ups on their 71's and hustled like crazy. Why would these not even be seen in the 60's or early 70's by anyone if they were a 50's product?

Run for the hills on any of this repack junk unless you enjoy paying hundreds for a few stacks of EX-commons.

[ALR-bishop]

How can the repack story be hokey if they are admittedly cards obtained by a 3d party at some point and repackaged....which they obviously are. And they are "real" Topps cards, right ?

I have no idea when they were first offered. That is what I want to know. Personal curiosity. Murphy first offered his around 2001. Justin--you say you saw them in the early 80s. Were they Christmas packs or something else ? That would be a new fact for me

Ben says he saw them K Mart in the 1980s. You don't believe him ? Others have posted in other threads they think they bought them in the 80s at retail, but could not recall where. Agree you would think there would be more first hand accounts if they were sold at any large retail stores.

No one I am aware of has said they were a 50s product. In numerous threads over time I have seen reference to repacking in the 60s and 70s, but with no concrete evidence or first hand knowledge, That's what I want to know. When did they ( Christmas racks) first appear ? who started them ? When and where, if anywhere, were they sold at retail ? Just hobby curiosity.

And they are not garbage. They are real Topps cards in plainly visible condition, usually mid range.

Agreed they are not a Topps product and not mint cards

Do not understand why people get so upset about them. If someone buys them thinking they are something other than repackaged already circulated cards then that is another issue about the buyers. I am just interested in the actual history of these things. But you already know I am weird, I collect recurring print defects

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

How can the repack story be hokey if they are admittedly cards obtained by a 3d party at some point and repackaged....which they obviously are. And they are "real" Topps cards, right ?

I have no idea when they were first offered. That is what I want to know. Personal curiosity. Murphy first offered his around 2001. Justin--you say you saw them in the early 80s. Were they Christmas packs or something else ? That would be a new fact for me

Ben says he saw them K Mart in the 1980s. You don't believe him ? Others have posted in other threads they think they bought them in the 80s at retail, but could not recall where. Agree you would think there would be more first hand accounts if they were sold at any large retail stores.

No one I am aware of has said they were a 50s product. In numerous threads over time I have seen reference to repacking in the 60s and 70s, but with no concrete evidence or first hand knowledge, That's what I want to know. When did they ( Christmas racks) first appear ? who started them ? When and where, if anywhere, were they sold at retail ? Just hobby curiosity.

And they are not garbage. They are real Topps cards in plainly visible condition, usually mid range.

Agreed they are not a Topps product and not mint cards

Do not understand why people get so upset about them. If someone buys them thinking they are something other than repackaged already circulated cards then that is another issue about the buyers. I am just interested in the actual history of these things. But you already know I am weird, I collect recurring print defects

You are the last person I want to pick on Al!

I get really upset at these silly Christmas packs as I honestly see them purported as vintage by unscrupulous sellers pretty much every day of the year and it’s just sad.

I would never call Ben a liar as well, and while I have seen numerous repack items at stores (I think there was a specific company that did this but I don’t remember the name in the late 80s and early 90s), I have never seen a Christmas Pack or heard of one seen in a true retail environment. If Ben saw an actual version of these Christmas repacks in KMart, it would be the first account I have heard in my collecting career.

I do vaguely remember the same dealer each time in the boom years of mall shows having these. Maybe 1987ish? They usually had no collectors at the table and it was likely one of those scam grandma deals buying something for the grandkids.

When stating “garbage”, I am saying these often sell to the uninformed for good money. This is why they keep making them. If I paid 200 bucks plus for a stack of commons in VG, I would be furious.

[JustinD]

I will add that the person who I would trust to locate info on these is Dave Hornish and he also is the only person I know to have a photo of a real vintage repack.

I do remember seeing the netted kind with packs in the 80s in stores as well as cards being in Easter basket repacks.

Dave does have a picture of a netted repack with a 52’ pack that I would consider of the era.

[bnorth]

This is my memory and I texted my brother to confirm.

I had forgot all about ever buying any of these Christmas rack packs. Then a few years ago I bought my brothers collection from him. Like our father my brother is a pack rat and saves everything. When going through his collection there was a empty Christmas rack pack. I noticed the KMart sticker on it and kinda remember seeing/buying some myself. I don't remember what was in them but my brother says they had Topps cards from the last few years in them and it was 1988 or 89. He had nothing newer than 1992(quit collecting) in his collection so the pack was from then or before.

[JustinD]

Thanks Ben!

That makes sense with all the stuff going on during the ultra junk wax period. I stopped collecting while in college which would line right up with that period and picked back up a few years later with my first “real job” ,lol.

Do you remember how they were packed? Was it a stocking or like the bubbles on cardboard like Donruss was using?

[JustinD]

Found this from that time which is UPC coded and looks like an overstock dump. Was it like this?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Thanks Ben!

That makes sense with all the stuff going on during the ultra junk wax period. I stopped collecting while in college which would line right up with that period and picked back up a few years later with my first “real job” ,lol.

Do you remember how they were packed? Was it a stocking or like the bubbles on cardboard like Donruss was using?

It looked like the Christmas rack packs sold on eBay without the little handle thing some of them have. Not sure exactly how similar because I found it looked at it and was like WTF did he keep this for and threw it away.

[jchcollins]

I will be the first to admit I don't know enough about unopened vintage, whether repack or factory - so that is why I avoid this kind of thing. But there are undoubtedly a camp of folks that believe there were some "original" Christmas rack packs - yes repacked somewhere by some entity, but issued usually before a certain date - the one you most often see is through 1963. I have seen at least some evidence in YouTube videos and elsewhere that this might be true. I suppose putting valuable cards in the middle or visible on the back could simply be a tactic to sell contrived modern fantasy pieces as "genuine." Do any of these packs, even if they have a visible Mantle or Aaron or whatever - really sell for much more than slightly above the average value of those cards that can be seen? Not really, from what I can tell. In other words, it's not as if they go for exponentially more than the card(s) that might be in them would be worth in the way that say, a BBCE certified 1975 Topps Cello or Rack might go for because it's possibly holding a minty Brett or Yount RC.

Yes, I would agree that most or at least a high percentage of what you see offered out there in this vein now is 21st century crap - you can tell that the type of plastic / cello used even is wrong and not "vintage" / period correct for those of us that remember on some of them. But I would say from all I have seen that I believe it is possible that there were some original repacks from a time before the modern hobby existed.

I don't buy vintage unopened. I target the specific vintage cards I want and mostly buy them individually. No surprises for me...

[BobC]

Solving the repack question should be extremely simple. Has anyone bothered to ask Topps if they ever sold Christmas Rack Packs, or anything else like what you're all debating about? If the say no, or even they just don't remember, then I think you have the definitive answer. As Al said earlier, these are definitely real Topps cards, just repackaged by someone other than Topps. They have no Topps logos or copyright or other such distinguishing markings on them that I'm aware of, and when was the last time you saw ANY actual true Topps released product that did not? Answer is.........NEVER! Plus, had someone tried faking such, it would have made them subject to prosecution and civil liability to Topps.

As long as people realize what these truly are, and can therefore decide what to pay for one of these if they still want one, who really cares? They are sort of an oddball, almost fantasy type piece, and that is about it. There is nothing wrong with these as long as sellers are honest about what these truly are. But still, caveat emptor.

I can understand (and share) some people's curiosity to learn who did put these together then, and when, but if that info is not already readily available and out there, chances are now it may never be. It is possible the responsible party(ies) are no longer with us, or if they are, aren't open to revealing themselves in fear of negative reactions, harassment, and possibly even litigation. I bought, and still have, a Christmas Pack with 1968 Topps cards in it I got off Ebay long ago, for not a whole lot of money. Got and own it as sort of a novelty piece, and as an example of the way someone tried marketing Topps cards in the past. I could quickly see and realized what it was way back then, at least a couple decades or more ago. And though not an actual Topps issue, it does represent a legitimate, albeit alternate, form of marketing Topps cards.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

Solving the repack question should be extremely simple. Has anyone bothered to ask Topps if they ever sold Christmas Rack Packs, or anything else like what you're all debating about? If the say no, or even they just don't remember, then I think you have the definitive answer. .

Whether or not Topps made them is not the point of debate. They didn't. That much as far as I know has never been in question.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Whether or not Topps made them is not the point of debate. They didn't. That much as far as I know has never been in question.

My mistake then, but I thought part of the question had to do with whether or not Topps was somehow involved in these, and/or that some people still weren't sure if these were possibly considered on a par as legit unopened packs then. I thought a post or two in this thread referred to some people still thinking these may be legit unopened packs somehow, and there were Youtube videos of people opening them with that thinking in mind.

My comment was not directed at you or several others in this thread that realize these were repacks by someone else. My comment was meant more for anyone who may still not realize, or fully believe, Topps had nothing to do with these. And that since it hadn't been mentioned by anyone else in the thread, if there was anyone with a potential lingering question about these being legit unopened packs, asking Topps about them should be the most definitive way to have originally answered that question. I was actually a bit surprised no one else in this thread said anything about Topps officials being asked if the company ever issued or had any known involvement with issuing such Christmas packs, and the comeback was a resounding no.

So just for the record, does anyone know if Topps officials were ever formally asked about these, and if so, what was their official response?

[ALR-bishop]

Justin---peace buddy. Sorry for my tone

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

My comment was not directed at you or several others in this thread that realize these were repacks by someone else. My comment was meant more for anyone who may still not realize, or fully believe, Topps had nothing to do with these. And that since it hadn't been mentioned by anyone else in the thread, if there was anyone with a potential lingering question about these being legit unopened packs, asking Topps about them should be the most definitive way to have originally answered that question.

Again. I have never seen anyone assert that they were a Topps-issued product. So yes, one could ask Topps, but I'm not sure why that would be necessary. I would be more interested to know if the repacking (for at least some of them) occured in 1963, or if they are all post 1980's shams. From what I can tell the majority here believe that these are not "vintage era" (pre-1980) repacks at all.