Casey Stengel and Dave Roberts...

[Jay Wolt]

[Leon]

One from my previous collection...

[brianp-beme]

Little David was feeling left out, so here is a card of him...a 2006 Topps Heritage (1957 style) picturing him, fittingly, as a San Diego Padres player.

Brian (card not mine)

[oldjudge]

Great teams don’t necessarily have a boatload of HOFers. More likely than not they have a bunch of really good players who just fall short of HOF caliber. The great Yankee teams of the late 1990s were great because of guys like Paul O’Neill, Tina Martinez, David Cone, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, etc. Same with the Yankee teams of the fifties and early sixties.
As for Stengel, I think he was a horrible manager. He cost the Yankees the 1960 series by not starting Ford, after he requested to be started on short rest, in game 7. I don’t think Robert’s is particularly bad or particularly good, just an average stat executor.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Great teams don’t necessarily have a boatload of HOFers. More likely than not they have a bunch of really good players who just fall short of HOF caliber. The great Yankee teams of the late 1990s were great because of guys like Paul O’Neill, Tina Martinez, David Cone, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, etc. Same with the Yankee teams of the fifties and early sixties.
As for Stengel, I think he was a horrible manager. He cost the Yankees the 1960 series by not starting Ford, after he requested to be started on short rest, in game 7. I don’t think Robert’s is particularly bad or particularly good, just an average stat executor.

I dunno Jay. It wasn't short rest-- it was NO rest. Whitey had just pitched a complete game the day before. Hardly seems reckless for the manager to go to someone else, regardless of what his Ace says. Besides, they had a three-run lead with 6 outs to go when the bullpen blew it. So unless you think Whitey Ford would have been pitching, and effectively, for his 17th inning in around 24 hours, I don't see how Casey's decision cost the team the series.

[oldjudge]

It would have been a moot point if he started Ford in game one. Ford threw two complete game shutouts in games three and six. If he had started game one he would have been rested for a game seven if necessary. BTW, the Yankees fired Stengel after that debacle.

[G1911]

Berra, possibly the greatest catcher ever

Dimaggio (a super star through 1950, 3 rings with Stengel) and Mantle, 2 of the top 5 or so greatest center fielders ever.

Ford, one of the greatest lefties.

If the Stengel Yankees teams didn't have 'top tier' players as well as lots of the really good variety, I am hard pressed to think of a single team that ever has. The Yankees were not a collection of good players lacking superstars, by any definition that does not exclude basically every single team in baseball history.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It would have been a moot point if he started Ford in game one. Ford threw two complete game shutouts in games three and six. If he had started game one he would have been rested for a game seven if necessary. BTW, the Yankees fired Stengel after that debacle.

I see- you changed your argument. Hindsight is usually 20-20. The last time the Yankees were in the World Series, 1958, Whitey was credited with zero of his team's 4 wins. In his final start, Game 6, he did not survive the second inning, and was relieved by Art Ditmar, who bailed him out and the team rallied in extra innings. In 1960, Whitey was only 12-9, and Ditmar led the team in wins. So starting Ditmar in Game 1 in favor of Ford was not without reason. But in true fan and media fashion it became beyond dispute that the Yankees would have won if Ford pitched games 1, 4 and 7. Of course, the Yankees scored only 4 runs in the opener and 2 in game 4, as opposed to the 10 and 12 they gave Whitey in his starts, but no doubt he would have still stymied the opponent and carried the day. Open and shut case. Let's release the 70 year old manager--HE cost us the series.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't disagree that the pundits and world-renown baseball experts in New York to this day blame Stengel for not starting Ford in Game 1. I do disagree with the logic that it was the reason Pittsburgh won the Series.